Fog horn?

[Nick14]

I'd like to pick everyone's brains here on fog horns and controllers.

Here in New England it occasionally might get foggy (like, at least a couple of times a week). I'd like to get some sort of automatic controller.

Has anyone here used either the Signal Mate or Kahlenberg controllers?

What do you use for a fog horn? Just the regular signaling horn, or do you have a separate horn? If separate, what do you use?

Thank you!

 

[Aguyinak]

We installed a Standard VLH-3000 loud hailer and it has an automatic fog horn function that works very well.

https://www.thegpsstore.com/Brands/...7btee-bF6B8EulFXSFZ1_au-yz9rUlwoaAqU3EALw_wcB

 

[SoWhat]

I have an older Uniden UM525 VHF. It has a connector for an external speaker and I can select automatic fog signals. Works very well. If I had a 100'+ yacht I would have a Kahlenberg controller to match my Kahlenberg horns.

(Actually I would invest in latest state of the art radar before the horns.)

 

[fgarriso]

We use a dedicated hailer.

 

[O C Diver]

I have an old Raytheon hailer / fog horn system. For me having the underway fog horn is good, but You really should have all the required signals:

Underway
Underway not making way
At anchor
Etc.

Ted

 

[danderer]

I installed a https://kahlenberg.ie/m-485a-sound-signal-controller/ a couple years ago. Connected to my air horns. Simple and works fine. Was around $200.

 

[CaptTom]

I use the FogMate controller. Unfortunately the manufacturer is out of business.


It's great in New England and Atlantic Canada where, as you say, it can get foggy. I do have the loud hailer sound signal option on my VHF, but I only use that in a very light fog. When the "real" stuff rolls in, I want to be 100% compliant with the rules, and I want to be heard.


So, I can't personally recommend any specific controller that's on the market today, but I can strongly recommend you get one. You really don't want to be manually timing your signals. And you certainly don't want to be one of those idiots who doesn't bother with them at all.

 

[markpierce]

Have and recommend an air horn TWICE (four times as loud) the required minimum. Specifically, have Kahlenberg D-2 horns and M-522 controller

One advantage of controllers is that the signals conform to required length of sound. For example, most boaters mistakenly consider a half-second toot to represent a four-second prolonged.

 

[IRENE]

We use the hailer built in to the Standard Horizon radio. There are many adjustments to comply with the Annexes to the COLREGS. Speaker is way up, the mast under the RADAR, so not an annoyance in the pilothouse. Pleased with the setup and recommend it after many whole days in restricted vis.

 

[ranger58sb]

Has anyone here used either the Signal Mate or Kahlenberg controllers?

What do you use for a fog horn? Just the regular signaling horn, or do you have a separate horn? If separate, what do you use?

We have a Kahlenberg, came standard on the boat. Sounds like a small ship!

But for fog... we've had better luck with an ICOM radio with external hailer. The radio controls signal timing, easy. We transited Delaware Bay once, mostly not being able to see the front of the boat, with an M605/horn doing it's thing while we paid attention to other instruments.

That said... when we added another ICOM radio to this current last year, specifically to also add foghorn, I selected another M400BB, largely because we don't have much real estate left at the helm.

But then M400BB turns out to NOT have the automatic version, and I didn't discover that until we actually did a short transit to fuel cock and back last November.

I yapped at ICOM 'cause their online comparison chart didn't at all make that clear...

And ICOM seems to be stepping up. First, they amended their comparison chart, and we're currently in discussions to trade that "new" M400BB for a new M510. Assuming that all comes together, I'm pretty pleased with their customer support response. Even just changing the chart seemed like a decent step forward...

Useful to learn about Kahlenberg's M-522 controller though. Hadn't known about that...

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

Our VHFs don't have hailers, but the actual horns are louder than most hailers anyway. We put in one of the FogMate controllers a few years ago. If buying now, it would definitely be one of the choices mentioned at the start of this thread.

If it weren't for cost, I've debated upgrading to one of the other controllers anyway, as they automate other signals and also support a proper at-anchor fog signal if ever needed. The Fogmate doesn't do the at-anchor signal, and for any other signalling you still have to use the horn switch manually.

For actual horns, ours are electric (although I'd love a set of Kahlenberg T-0As). The electric setup we have is 3 toned and very loud. The 3 tone setup is also quite distinctive and gets people's attention. I took a pair of the Ongaro dual electric horns, then mounted one of their single shorty horns to it for a third tone (it doesn't match either of the trumpets in the dual set).

 

[Hippocampus]

We have the Kalhlenbug horn which came with the boat and do follow colregs. But being a New Englander I find both mine and others fog signals disappointing. Unlike radar which I feel is a must have in New England I find I’m often mislead as to location by horns. I think even in a fog bank the density of the fog varies so sound bounces off those sharp variations. Even when one of us goes out on the bow end up being mislead. With buoys tend to do better with bells or other higher pitched sounds.

Any thoughts on how to better locate where a fog horn is coming from? At present just pay real close attention to the radar. The difficult part remains seeing small stationary fish boats and skiffs with poor returns, no lights and no AIS at dawn and twilight.

 

[jleonard]

I have an older Uniden UM525 VHF. It has a connector for an external speaker and I can select automatic fog signals. Works very well. If I had a 100'+ yacht I would have a Kahlenberg controller to match my Kahlenberg horns.

(Actually I would invest in latest state of the art radar before the horns.)

That is also what I had. Easy to use and works well.

 

[CaptTom]

The hailer through the VHF will usually do the at-anchor signals. I don't remember ever using that one though. But for underway in heavy fog, I want the "real" horn for safety.


The hardware for a horn controller is dead simple. This ESP8266 with four relays will switch up to 10A DC on each relay. It's not "marinized" for a harsh environment, but it could be tucked away someplace protected on most boats.


The software is equally simple. Setting it up using Arduino or ESPHome would be trivial. No doubt there are even better (and cheaper) options, this just happens to be something I was looking at for another project anyway.

 

[Nick14]

Thank you for all the ideas and experiences everyone!

 

[Don Souza]

The best part you get stay inside dry lesson for a reply.
Don

 

[Csellars]

We use a loud haler with forward facing water proof speaker with fog function. Only way to go. Also cover your butt in the fog, log when you start and end fog sound signals.

 

[Lepke]

I use a loud horn from a ship scrapped in Alang. In thick fog, other boats tend to stay away. I use a homemade controller that alters the time a few seconds either way.

 

[OldDan1943]

I use a loud horn from a ship scrapped in Alang. In thick fog, other boats tend to stay away. I use a homemade controller that alters the time a few seconds either way.

’

I added 2 more air horns and FogMate controller……. I sound like a Hatters even though I am only 34ft LOA.

 

[Circumnavigator]

I have used the FogMate controller on three boats -- sorry to hear they are no longer with us.


Fintry has a 126dba electric foghorn. Morning Light has air horns. In dense New England fog I would not rely on a radio/speaker combination unless it will put out 125dba or more.


Unless you rely on a radio that has built in fog signals, I would definitely have a horn controller -- blowing the horn every two minutes is a distraction you don't need while navigating in dense fog.


Jim

 

[OldDan1943]

3 boats? You are a glutton for punishment.
This my 2nd and last boat. The first was declared a ‘constructive loss’ after a boat yard failed to block it properly and it fell off the jacks.

 

[Circumnavigator]

3 boats? You are a glutton for punishment.

That's over a period of 30 years -- actually over the 55 years I've been boating -- starting after we were married -- we've owned five boats over 25 feet and several Boston Whalers.

Clytie -- SS Crocker Amantha Cutter 30'
Clarissa B. Carver - Gaff Schooner --40'
Sweetwater -- Swan 57 Sloop (circumvav 1995-98)
Fintry -- x Royal Navy Fleet Tender -79' 150 tons displacement (crossed Atlantic, lived aboard in Boston)

Morning Light - Single screw Webers Cove trawler -- 40'


Jim

 

[psneeld]

Fog horns location hard to identify?

I thought AIS was so many people's savior.

Radar, common sense, experience all come into play with hearing a fog horn and not sure where it is coming from and no AIS cross reference.

Ther trouble with sound signals in fog is too many don't use them, don't understand how to use them and safely nav in fog, and others cannot "see in fog" like they can't see bottom depths in the ICW because they can't read the land and water around them.

This is the classic of trying to understand things with limited experience versus real experience over decades. Some things are tough to be learned with reading and listening without actually experiencing.

 

[markpierce]

Seemingly very rare in the San Francisco Bay/estuary that fog reduces visibility under one mile. At times have wished there was more fog to make use of my horns, given the investment.

 

[Hippocampus]

P have been boating in fog for over 35 years. Hundreds of hours. Maybe you’re magical and better than the rest of us. It’s hard to localize with any precision when there’s very high density pockets intermixed with lower. Just like temperature gives thermoclimes to water fog (water droplets in the air) can do that to sound and serve as a reflective surface. Like with wind if you have two good ears and turn your head you may get a decent idea of the general area. Have found it’s good to have two people listening. Ideally one in front of the house or any obstruction. Going from one side to the other side helps. But when you can’t see the front of the boat and you’re soaking wet a few seconds after going outside to listen some times it’s hard even with “limited” experience.

So I plead guilty of really appreciating radar and AIS when there’s multiple fog horns from various directions and various intensities. Any way I can identify the precise location of the vessels around me and their point of closest approach means less to worry about. Guess I’m inadequate in your view. I think I’m a prudent navigator making use of every tool available.

After dodging coral heads and sneaking in skinning water for decades still appreciate a good depth finder as well. Sometimes the color of the water is misleading and sometimes the sun isn’t behind you. Use every tool available.

 

[psneeld]

I love RADAR. Only directed comment at AIS ( a bit of poking the bear ) .... sorta when one hears a fog signal but has no AIS target.

The real question is who knows the NAVRULES about sound signals and required actions?

That might solve the mystery of precision location.

 

[twistedtree]

We have a Kahlenberg, came standard on the boat. Sounds like a small ship!

But for fog... we've had better luck with an ICOM radio with external hailer. The radio controls signal timing, easy. We transited Delaware Bay once, mostly not being able to see the front of the boat, with an M605/horn doing it's thing while we paid attention to other instruments.

That said... when we added another ICOM radio to this current last year, specifically to also add foghorn, I selected another M400BB, largely because we don't have much real estate left at the helm.

But then M400BB turns out to NOT have the automatic version, and I didn't discover that until we actually did a short transit to fuel cock and back last November.

I yapped at ICOM 'cause their online comparison chart didn't at all make that clear...

And ICOM seems to be stepping up. First, they amended their comparison chart, and we're currently in discussions to trade that "new" M400BB for a new M510. Assuming that all comes together, I'm pretty pleased with their customer support response. Even just changing the chart seemed like a decent step forward...

Useful to learn about Kahlenberg's M-522 controller though. Hadn't known about that...

-Chris

If you get the M510, just be aware that you also need the wifi connected adjunct box to get loud hailer functionality. I think it’s one of the most stupid product configurations I have ever seen, and especially with reports of wifi connectivity issues even when components are right next to each other. The core radios in Icom are outstanding, and I think distinctly better than Standard Horizon, but everything else about them is pretty brain dead.

 

[Hippocampus]

Multiple times I’m concerned the other operator doesn’t. Particular concern when there’s multiple boats in close proximity to me and going too fast in spite of the limited visibility. End up staying away from one means getting closer to another. Unfortunately all too many don’t follow colregs nor maintain a steady course. Yes it’s my job to follow colregs which I do but sometimes difficult when others aren’t nor reminded to do so via vhf. Radar doesn’t give me their name so calling on vhf when there’s a multiplicity of boats in close proximity is often a worthless exercise. AIS knocks off a few (I don’t need to interact with them being able to track them continuously easily). That helps. Find it a significant aid and wish more people would install transceivers. Guess we’re going to agree to disagree on this one.

Also we’re not uncommonly dealing with very small fish boats. No reflectors and poor returns. Really like our new generation radar which is a real improvement from the past. But you get a bunch of these small open boats fishing in the channel. You’re draft restricted and need to inch through them. No AIS, poor returns, no fog horns. No joy in fog. Anything that helps I appreciate. Even getting behind a good size steel fishing trawler and following them in. Whatever helps and that includes AIS

 

[jgwinks]

The loud hailer or VHF horns function is easiest but usually not as loud as the air horns. And the tone doesn't really sound like a ship's "fog horn". One time while running in heavy fog with the hailer tooting away, I had a fisherman in an 18' tinny try to run me down. Seems the hailer sounded a lot like the horn at the harbor entrance and he thought we were that. Ever since then I still use the hailer but give the real horns a blast when I think another boat is near.
I didn't know there was a controller for those till I read this, I'll be checking them out.

 

[psneeld]

I have no idea what the sound difference is, but smaller vessel fog horns are not the same frequency as ships horn according to the NAVRULES. Whether they can be again, haven't seen it in writing any place.

NAVRULES

INLAND—
ANNEX III
33 CFR 86
Technical Details of Sound Signal Appliances

§ 86.03 Limits of fundamental frequencies
To ensure a wide variety of whistle characteristics, the fundamental
frequency of a whistle shall be between the following limits:
(a) 70-200 Hz, for a vessel 200 meters or more in length;
(b) 130-350 Hz, for a vessel 75 meters but less than 200 meters in length;
(c) 250-525 Hz, for a vessel less than 75 meters in length.