EXAMPLE: Defender vs West Marine. Whats up???

[mvweebles]

I was short four 3/8" ball valves and 20-feet of fuel hose for a fuel system rebuild. I thought "What the hell, I'll go to West Marine and just bite the bullet. How bad could it be???"

How bad? 250% premium bad.

They only had one of the valves I needed which made the decision easy. Look at the price difference between WM and Defender (only difference is WM had Shields hose, Defender sells Trident).

What's up with that???

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

WM is almost always expensive. For some items it's a small premium, for others it's massive. And occasionally their price on an item is actually good. I pretty much consider them a last resort as a result.

 

[mvweebles]

All I can say is that with overnight shipping from Connecticut to San Diego, including tax, Defender was still $185 less expensive than West Marine ($190 vs $375). Only thing I can figure is WM Pro Discount must be enormous these days, and the high prices allow marine professionals who charge their customers MSRP a greater margin.

Peter

 

[O C Diver]

I like Defender and patronize them when I can. Have bought a few things recently and wonder whether they are reducing inventory based on the acquisition or new business model.

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

I like Defender and patronize them when I can. Have bought a few things recently and wonder whether they are reducing inventory based on the acquisition or new business model.

Ted

I can tell you from recent experience that the shelves I've been shopping have been lean. San Diego Marine Exchange is a locally infamous old-school chandlery. When I head from Ensenada to San Diego, it's a day-long trek so I pick-up 5-20 SKUs at a time. It's been a long time since I've gotten a complete order. Missing has been run-of-the-mill stuff. Epiphanes in gallons. 14/3 AC cable (had to go with 12/3 - at double the price). All sorts of stuff that used to be readily available. Previously mentioned valves and hose. Not the type of stuff you'd expect to be back-ordered. WHen I was home in Florida doing some plumbing (house, not boat), I needed three 1/2" PVC couplers. I ended up buying a bag of 25 because I couldn't find three - and I was lucky to get the bag.

Bottom line is while I am super-skeptical of the "Supply Chain" stuff being floated, I do believe that some markets are indeed affected. Marine being one. I'd give Defender a pass....for a while. I don't see anything unusual with them (and lord knows, I've order a LOT of stuff from them in the last 3-years).

Peter

 

[sean9c]

I looked up your 2 items using my WMPro acct. I get a mid range discount and could get within $1 on the price on the hose but the only 3/8" Groco ball valve they show is in stainless and is crazy expensive.
WM pricing sucks and always has, that's what happens when you bigfoot into areas and all the little stores can't compete and close.

 

[mvweebles]

I looked up your 2 items using my WMPro acct. I get a mid range discount and could get within $1 on the price on the hose but the only 3/8" Groco ball valve they show is in stainless and is crazy expensive.
WM pricing sucks and always has, that's what happens when you bigfoot into areas and all the little stores can't compete and close.

I tried looking-up the Groco ball valve online and couldn't find it. The main San Diego WM is pretty big and has pro-desk and engine parts counter in back, so a bit different than others I've been in. They had one Groco 3/8" Female/Female NPT valve on the shelf for $40.99. That was it.

In all fairness, the price of these Groco valves varies widely - Hodges and a couple others had them for around $24/each. Defender was definitely cheapest at $17. Defender isn't usually the lowest cost, but they are usually within 5% or so. And their availability is pretty good.

West Marine should have bought Defender and smothered them. I'm embarrassed to admit what I've spent in the last couple years refitting my boat. 60% went to Defender, 20% to some similar stores such as Hodges. 19% went to specialty suppliers such as Newfound Metals. Well under 1% went to West Marine, and that was mostly because they price-matched at the time. I had not been in a West Marine in 2-years before today.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

In my experience, WM's normal prices are well above MSRP. Like rslifkin, I consider them a stop of absolute last resort.

 

[mvweebles]

I did actually buy something from West Marine today. On Friday, my electrician in Ensenada discovered he needed three fuses to install my Magnum inverter. So we decided on a ATO fuse block. I couldn't get it drop-shipped in time, and West Marine had a Blue Sea 6-gang block in stock ($45, which isn't bad).

But here's the rub that has me wondering how they stay in business:

Their online website said there were three in stock at the Rosecrans SD West Marine, but to call the store to verify, which I did. They held it for me for pickup this morning. NOTE - most national chains now have shop-online, pick-up in-store. Meaning you pay for it online. Not West Marine. So I show up this morning to pick-up at Will Call, and there's no one there. I politely ask an associate to have someone show-up and he does. Still no one shows up at Will Call. So I remember "There are supposed to be three in stock...." There are two on the shelf so I pluck one and buy it, meaning there is still one in Will Call waiting to be picked up. I'll also say check-out at WM is about 5-years behind. They don't want the chip-insert, just swipe.

An hour later I discover SD Marine Exchange is short 4-valves so I return and have the experience I origily posted so when I return, I try to tell the guy at Will Call to release the Blue Sea block. But he is busy with 3 customers, and frankly, I'm ready to head home and take a Xanax.

There was a thread a couple months ago about the change of ownership at WM (again). As best i can tell, whatever the owners at WM are doing these days, it sure as hell isn't blazing new ground, and it's not regaining the boating customer base.

Peter

EDIT - if anyone from West Marine reads this forum, I see there are 23 people reading this thread as I type. If you want intelligent feedback on how to improve your market penetration, there are some really bright people on this forum.

 

[lwarden]

San Diego Marine Exchange has really struggled with stock since Covid supply chain issues popped up. It seems better in the past month or so, but for a while it was very hit or miss. Still, I try and use them as much as I can and since I get a good discount the prices there are as good as any online place for the most part.

 

[Comodave]

I used to use Jamestown Distributers with their membership plan with free shipping. But they did away with that so I stopped using them. Now I have been using Defender with their membership plan. Hope the new owners don’t screw up Defender cause there isn’t a big supplier left.

 

[CharlieO.]

You're killing me. I just made a stop at WM for fuel lines, a few fittings, new bilge hoses, a few clamps and a quart of bilge paint. I need these on hand for real early Thursday and didn't want to risk it not being here in time on Wednesday. I definitely paid a premium for the comfort of having these on hand. We are scheduled for Friday launch.

Anyone have a Groco Six port fuel valve on hand? I have sourced one in stock at WM Atlantic Highlands. Only place I could find one in stock, but have to call when they open to verify, and I'd miss a minimum of 2 hrs boat work time to chase it. Might try to overnight this part from somewhere on the east coast though.

 

[CharlieO.]

I will say I was extremely happy with the service I received ordering from Great Lakes Skipper. I was not happy with the fit and finish of one of the tanks I ordered and they made the replacement quick and painless.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have a port supply account. Good for 25-50% discount. Even with that consider WM a clothing store not a chandlery. The sales rack for clothes and boots/shoes does offer good stuff at reasonable prices. Biggest problem I have is I don’t know the correct name/supplier/sizing for things. Even now after 3 decades of involvement.
In the old days there was 4 family held chandleries in my town. I’d take the broken part to them one by one until I found a perfect match. I’d also chat them up about any project I was contemplating. They were knowledgeable and walk me through it. Would also collect what I would need to do it and tell me which supplier had the best stuff.
Now I walk into a WM and need to teach them . The name of the part. What’s it for. Who makes the best one. Find parts on hand are for small motor boats. Vey little on the shelves for cruisers in power or sail.
You see the same degeneration elsewhere
Brooks Brothers used to measure you and keep your card on file.
Orvis used to be all about fishing not branding.
L.L.Bean was a camping, fishing and hunting store.
List is infinite. Every time they’re selling lifestyle not the real accoutrements necessary to do the activity. Branding not best.

 

[rslifkin]

In general, I consider Defender my go-to. If they don't have what I want or their price isn't great, I'll generally go to Fisheries, Hodges, Citimarine, Jamestown, Marine Parts Source, Go2Marine or BoatID as the next step. Most of those second-tier suppliers are second-tier in my mind as they just aren't quite as well rounded as Defender in the price and selection department. All of them are good suppliers, but some of them are only useful to me for a specific range of items and their prices or selection just aren't great outside that.

But even Defender isn't perfect. I've ordered a couple things from elsewhere recently out of necessity. Like new fuel hoses for my boat. Defender wasn't the cheapest for the feed or vent lines and they only carry 1.5" and 2" fill hose. My fill hoses are 2 3/8", so I had to go elsewhere for those. On the other hand, for the water tank build, Defender's prices on fiberglass are pretty hard to beat.

In the old days there was 4 family held chandleries in my town. I’d take the broken part to them one by one until I found a perfect match. I’d also chat them up about any project I was contemplating. They were knowledgeable and walk me through it. Would also collect what I would need to do it and tell me which supplier had the best stuff.
Now I walk into a WM and need to teach them . The name of the part. What’s it for. Who makes the best one. Find parts on hand are for small motor boats. Vey little on the shelves for cruisers in power or sail.
You see the same degeneration elsewhere

The employee knowledge definitely varies. Some WM stores have good managers and do a decent job of that (although they still may not have what you need). Others are definitely less helpful.

 

[NEtrawler58]

There is no comparison between WM and Defender. I can drive to both, WM is 5 mins, Defender is about an hour. I was at Defender a couple week ago and there was no sign of reduced stocking. In fact I couldn't believe how well stocked they are in comparison to the local WM which has minimal stock. I'll use WM out of convenience if they have it, otherwise I'll drive to Defender for bigger purchases or if I can't wait for delivery. If you are strictly shopping online, Defender is usually among the best, but you may find better deals, even on Amazon.

 

[AlanT]

All I can say is that with overnight shipping from Connecticut to San Diego, including tax, Defender was still $185 less expensive than West Marine ($190 vs $375). Only thing I can figure is WM Pro Discount must be enormous these days, and the high prices allow marine professionals who charge their customers MSRP a greater margin.

Peter

Hi Peter, When we commissioned our last sailboat in 2006 in Ft Lauderdale we were given a one month access to WM pro discount. We bought thousands of dollars of gear at WM and price-checked most of it against Defender. In almost all cases the WM price WITH the pro discount was roughly equal to the Defender price. When that deal expired i switched to Defender wherever possible!
~A

 

[Pau Hana]

West Marine = 7-11; convenient but expensive.

 

[tiltrider1]

I have found that COVID is the new excuse for poor service. Yes, Covid has had an effect on the supply chain, but not as much of an effect as management either being unable or unwilling to invest in inventory. One of my main suppliers is running at a75% fill rate. Employees there informed me that business was up 25% but the President is so afraid of being caught with excess inventory that he will only allow a 5% growth rate in purchasing. I suspect that WM hasn’t the Capital to up their purchasing rate even when sales are up. Both of these decisions lead to empty shelves.

 

[GoneFarrell]

Defender, Fisheries, Boatzincs, and most recently: Fixnzip for zipper sliders. The staff at these places know their business and how to treat customers.

WM in my area is more like a clothing store with expensive parts not in stock than a chandlery.

 

[Datenight]

Somewhat off topic (suprise!) but Hamilton Marine in Maine has been a good source for me. They were the go when restoring the Green boat for things like rub rail and control cables. I only live 20 minutes from Defender and depend on them heavily but there are other good sources.

The local WM in Mystic is as others have mentioned poorly stocked and often much more for the same item.

Rob

 

[NEtrawler58]

I wouldn't be quick to blame store managers or employees as I doubt they have any control over inventory levels. Supply chain issues are real, not imaginary, and affect many businesses as does the shortage of trucks and drivers to transport goods. Also be sensitive to the fact that many businesses are short-staffed and trying to hire. That said, I did received friendly and helpful service at my recent visit to Defender. Some of it is the culture but also their ability to find and keep good employees, like any business.

 

[AKDoug]

WM has gotten a lot more competitive on electronics, but most things are overpriced. I get large items delivered to the store to avoid shipping charges, in Alaska that is huge! I do find that comparing products you need to be very careful the products being compared are actually the same. Sometimes a much higher quality item is confused with a lower quality one and the price difference is in the quality.

SometimesI can find a product on Defender that WM doesn't carry, and vice versa. Ordering from Defender always has a large shipping cost attached to it, my last $900 order cost $112 to be delivered. Part of living in Alaska...

 

[BandB]

All I can say is that with overnight shipping from Connecticut to San Diego, including tax, Defender was still $185 less expensive than West Marine ($190 vs $375). Only thing I can figure is WM Pro Discount must be enormous these days, and the high prices allow marine professionals who charge their customers MSRP a greater margin.

Peter

Oh wish the huge discounts were true, but when West Marine consolidated the wholesale under the West Marine Pro name, they also began reducing who qualified for the discounts and the amounts of them. Unfortunately, there's also been a cut back in true wholesalers and their service.

West Marine seems to remain confused and out of touch. The magnitude of difference you encountered is unusual, even for them. However, that they would have that shows they're doing a poor job of watching their prices and checking competitors.

 

[ABfish]

Defender, Fisheries, Boatzincs, and most recently: Fixnzip for zipper sliders. The staff at these places know their business and how to treat customers.

WM in my area is more like a clothing store with expensive parts not in stock than a chandlery.

No doubt this is true. I've realized that my fishing buddies will shop for a pack of circle hooks and look for a source that's a dollar cheaper.

But we'll stop by the "tackle shop" and buy a Columbia shirt for $75 on whim. Go figure!

 

[Comodave]

Where we live I will usually go to Amazon and get it there if I can because of the free shipping. If I go to WM, which I absolutely try never to do, it is an hour drive each way. So I can pay a few bucks more on Amazon and come out way ahead. I used to spend thousands a year at WM and had a Port Supply account through the CG Aux. They sent me a letter saying they were taking the account away but they surely appreciated my service to the country. If they really appreciated my service they wouldn’t have taken the account away. The local manager tried to get it reinstated since I spent so much money in his store but no go. So now I intentionally do not shop there unless it is an emergency.

 

[NEtrawler58]

It seems to me that WM has no interest in competing. I'm not sure what's going on with them, but when I shop there it just feels like they are ramping down and will inevitably close. Kind of like the last days of Blockbuster. The best retail stores struggle these days. You used to be able to order a house through the Sears catalog, who thought they would ever go under? I think days are numbered for WM. I hope not but it's the impression I get lately.

 

[Bacchus]

Hi Peter, When we commissioned our last sailboat in 2006 in Ft Lauderdale we were given a one month access to WM pro discount. We bought thousands of dollars of gear at WM and price-checked most of it against Defender. In almost all cases the WM price WITH the pro discount was roughly equal to the Defender price. When that deal expired i switched to Defender wherever possible!

~A

Just for info Defender has a reseller acct akin to WM Pro.
I dont know the details but do take advantage of my brother's accts.
We used to favor WM but now use Defender commercial acct.

 

[tiltrider1]

Where we live I will usually go to Amazon and get it there if I can because of the free shipping. If I go to WM, which I absolutely try never to do, it is an hour drive each way. So I can pay a few bucks more on Amazon and come out way ahead. I used to spend thousands a year at WM and had a Port Supply account through the CG Aux. They sent me a letter saying they were taking the account away but they surely appreciated my service to the country. If they really appreciated my service they wouldn’t have taken the account away. The local manager tried to get it reinstated since I spent so much money in his store but no go. So now I intentionally do not shop there unless it is an emergency.

I have a commercial account with Amazon. I find Amazon has replaces WM and I still have my Port Supply Account.

 

[CaptTom]

I'll second the plug for Hamilton Marine that @Datenight mentioned. It's like a candy store for (real) boaters. Their idea of designer clothing is Grundens. Their stock is skewed toward lobstering and commercial fishing gear, but carry plenty of items we mere recreational boaters can use.

Their prices aren't bad, but not bargains either. And their web site leaves a lot to be desired. But it's hard to walk out of one of their stores without lots more than you came in for.