Electrical plug in question

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bshillam

Guru
Joined
May 18, 2013
Messages
801
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Our Heaven
Vessel Make
1997 4800 Navigator
Riddle me this, I have used the 50amp Glendinning shore power cord since I bought the boat back in December. No issues what so ever from BC to Portland. Now I move the boat to a new slip / power source and can't even power the boat. It keeps tripping. Marina claims it's a GFCI plug and theres something wrong in my boat. I turned everything off on the breaker 110/and DC but still it continues to break. The marina claims they can run all kinds of tools off that plug with no issues, tried it today with no problems. Plug the boat in and it trips. Any ideas I can try?
 
Riddle me this, I have used the 50amp Glendinning shore power cord since I bought the boat back in December. No issues what so ever from BC to Portland. Now I move the boat to a new slip / power source and can't even power the boat. It keeps tripping. Marina claims it's a GFCI plug and theres something wrong in my boat. I turned everything off on the breaker 110/and DC but still it continues to break. The marina claims they can run all kinds of tools off that plug with no issues, tried it today with no problems. Plug the boat in and it trips. Any ideas I can try?

This is not an uncommon problem. It is becoming more prevalent as the docks upgrade their dock power to the new electrical standards. If they upgrade they have to incorporate GFIs on the docks. Your boat most likely does have a problem. The problem will not show up if the docks don’t have the new GFIs installed. What is happening is the GFIs look at the hot wire and compare the current going out on the hot to the current coming back on the neutral wire. If they are not equal, within 30 or 100 mAmps depending on how the dock is wired, then the GFI will trip. The problem is best left to a certified marine electrician if you are not very familiar with marine electrical work. Not even a household electrician will be familiar with the problem and how to fix it. I have fixed about a half dozen boats for this problem and it can be a simple fix or a very difficult problem, depending on what is wrong with your boat. People don’t want to believe it is a problem with their boat because their boat works at different docks, but it almost always is the boat. It is just that the docks are only getting around to rewiring their docks so the problem is starting to show up more and more. Our current boat worked fine for 45 days and over 1400 miles until we got it home and plugged it into our GFI protected dock power. It would trip the breakers just by plugging the boat in without anything being powered on. Sorry for the bad news, but it is most likely your boat.
 
Agree with Comodave on this. Had a similar experience. The fault was on my boat, nothing big and it had probably been that way since new. But the now common(er) GFI plug detected it...
 
My boat did not trip the pedastal breakers at any marinas when we did the Loop last year. When we pulled into Brunswick Landing Marina (GA), before being allowed to plug in, the dockmaster asked if we had had any problems at other marinas. But, for us, we would have if, before leaving, I had not discovered that, sometime in the past for some unknown reason, a jumper had been installed connecting the neutral (white) bus bar to the safety (green) bus bar.

Three years ago, based on some very sage advice from this forum and well before this became a common problem, I started looking around. There it was, the jumper, plain as day. Five minutes looking, five minutes to remove it. So, in my case I did not need an ABYC electrician but it was blind luck that an obvious problem was plain to see. For most folks getting an electrician is wise.

For those here who are more knowledgable than I, isn't the test for this problem to check the level of current on the hot wire as compared to the neutral and safety wires with a clamp-on meter? Shouldn't the safety wire show current of less than a certain amount? I don't know the answer.
Agree with Comodave on this. Had a similar experience. The fault was on my boat, nothing big and it had probably been that way since new. But the now common(er) GFI plug detected it...
 
Yes, there can be lots of possibilities. If you have the main breakers off and have a Galvanic Isolator with a LED monitor light to indicate normal operation, that can be enough of a draw to trip the GFCI plug. Not saying that's it in your boat, just an example of an older component that's not compatible with the new GFCI system.

Ted
 
"There it was, the jumper, plain as day." #4

The white (neutral) and green (ground) are only connected at the source.

They will be connected at the marina , and can sometimes be found connected on board at washer dryers , cheap non marine battery chargers .

When problem solving disconnect the wires , not just shut them off, for the suspected GFI problem maker.

As they are power sources both the inverter and noise maker will have the white and green connected , but the proper switching should have them both out of the circuit when using dock power.
 
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My boat did not trip the pedastal breakers at any marinas when we did the Loop last year. When we pulled into Brunswick Landing Marina (GA), before being allowed to plug in, the dockmaster asked if we had had any problems at other marinas. But, for us, we would have if, before leaving, I had not discovered that, sometime in the past for some unknown reason, a jumper had been installed connecting the neutral (white) bus bar to the safety (green) bus bar.

Three years ago, based on some very sage advice from this forum and well before this became a common problem, I started looking around. There it was, the jumper, plain as day. Five minutes looking, five minutes to remove it. So, in my case I did not need an ABYC electrician but it was blind luck that an obvious problem was plain to see. For most folks getting an electrician is wise.

For those here who are more knowledgable than I, isn't the test for this problem to check the level of current on the hot wire as compared to the neutral and safety wires with a clamp-on meter? Shouldn't the safety wire show current of less than a certain amount? I don't know the answer.


I would suggest going back and re-checking because it's possible that you solved one problem, yet created another one in the process.


The neutral and ground do need to be bonded, but it's a questions of WHEN and WHERE. And to further complicate things, it varies from boat to boat depending on what sorts of power generation equipment you have. Plus there are lots of ways to solve the problem.


Here's how the grounding should be set up on a boat:


- The simple summary rule is that the always needs to be one, and only one, neutral to ground connection. Boat builders and AC equipment installers have always been sloppy about this, and the rise of RCDs is now calling them out on past bad practices.



- When on shore power, the neutral/ground bond is in the shore-side power system, and your boat should NOT bond neutral and ground. Many boats, like yours, have an on-board ground and it is causing RCDs to trip in new marinas. But in many cases, you disable an important safety feature if you just remove that bonding wire. Read on to see why.


- When using an on-board source of power, like a generator or inverter, you need to bond neutral and ground. But since you are not plugged into shore power and can't utilize that bonding point, the bonding needs to be done on-board the boat. This is typically done right at the generator or inverter, or at a central point in your power system. But this on-board bonding needs to be in place when using the generator or inverter, but disconnected when using shore power. This is where it gets tricky. You can see that the need for this, and how it needs to work will vary based on whether you have an inverter or generator.



- Some inverters have a neutral to ground bond that is switched along with the inverter's internal transfer switch. That will solve the problem for the inverter, but I have heard of issues where the switch isn't fast enough and still trips RCDs. And you need to keep in mind that you might have your generator running with or without the inverter, so you need to look at all possible combinations on your boat.


- Neutral/ground bonding can also be handled in the power selector switches where you select between generator or shore power. If the switch breaks neutral as well as the power lines, you can bond on-board on the generator neutral, and not on the shore neutral. That way the correct bonding follows the power selector switch.
 
Is there an inverter? One common problem with inverter wiring that has been around for a while is that they used to often use one terminal block for all neutrals, whether for invertable loads or not.

This means that at start up, until the inverter has detected power, the output relay is in invert position and set to supply power, tying its neutral output to ground.

If there is only one neutral terminal block, tying the invertable neutrals to ground also ties the non-invertable neutrals to ground. This doesn't work with GFCI/EFCI as the ground now has current on it as a return path.

So, check your inverter wiring. If there is only one neutral block, add another and move all of the invertable loads' neutrals to it. Or, vice-versa, moving all of the non-invertable loads' neutrals, if easier.
 
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TT - Good helpful explanation. Thanks.
 
All solid advise, I do have a galvanic isolator on the boat. Really when it comes to electrical systems I leave it up to the pros. I can crawl around the boat and look to see if anything looks out of place but that's about where my expertise ends. I have other talents - electrical :banghead:
 
I found that the Selector Switch for my generator only switches the hot side. So if I leave the Generator breaker on (its a double breaker), I have a connection between Gnd/Neutral that should definitely not be there when on shore power. An on-board ground to neutral connection when on shore power will definitely trip the power pedestal GFCI.


Ken
 
An isolation transformer will remedy the GFI issue and keep swimmers safe. Which is the purpose of the new GFI regulations.

It will not correct any wiring problems.
 
Yes, there can be lots of possibilities. If you have the main breakers off and have a Galvanic Isolator with a LED monitor light to indicate normal operation, that can be enough of a draw to trip the GFCI plug. Not saying that's it in your boat, just an example of an older component that's not compatible with the new GFCI system.



Ted



That was the issue with my Mainship Pilot. Replaced the Galvanic Isolator with one without a monitor and it fixed the problem.
 
I had two problems on our Mainship. The galvanic isolator had an LED monitor that would trip the shore power GFCI. It also had a common neutral buss for all the AC loads. I found all the neutrals coming from everything powered by the inverter and connected them to a separate neutral buss, including the indicator lights for each circuit. That fixed my problems. I made a test cord that ran through a household GFCI outlet (thanks Comodave) that went in between my shore power pedestal and the boat. That way I could test what I was doing without having to go somewhere that had a GFCI outlet. Here's a simple diagram of the wiring.
 

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And if you use a household GFI then you are testing tp 6mAmps leakage so you should be good on a marine GFI that shuts off at 30 mAmps.
 
Thanks for the advice but here is another question. If I am not tripping the new pedastals, should I still be concerned? And why? Wouldn't I be chasing ghosts. This is such a black art. Makes me crazy.
I would suggest going back and re-checking because it's possible that you solved one problem, yet created another one in the process.


The neutral and ground do need to be bonded, but it's a questions of WHEN and WHERE. And to further complicate things, it varies from boat to boat depending on what sorts of power generation equipment you have. Plus there are lots of ways to solve the problem.


Here's how the grounding should be set up on a boat:


- The simple summary rule is that the always needs to be one, and only one, neutral to ground connection. Boat builders and AC equipment installers have always been sloppy about this, and the rise of RCDs is now calling them out on past bad practices.



- When on shore power, the neutral/ground bond is in the shore-side power system, and your boat should NOT bond neutral and ground. Many boats, like yours, have an on-board ground and it is causing RCDs to trip in new marinas. But in many cases, you disable an important safety feature if you just remove that bonding wire. Read on to see why.


- When using an on-board source of power, like a generator or inverter, you need to bond neutral and ground. But since you are not plugged into shore power and can't utilize that bonding point, the bonding needs to be done on-board the boat. This is typically done right at the generator or inverter, or at a central point in your power system. But this on-board bonding needs to be in place when using the generator or inverter, but disconnected when using shore power. This is where it gets tricky. You can see that the need for this, and how it needs to work will vary based on whether you have an inverter or generator.



- Some inverters have a neutral to ground bond that is switched along with the inverter's internal transfer switch. That will solve the problem for the inverter, but I have heard of issues where the switch isn't fast enough and still trips RCDs. And you need to keep in mind that you might have your generator running with or without the inverter, so you need to look at all possible combinations on your boat.


- Neutral/ground bonding can also be handled in the power selector switches where you select between generator or shore power. If the switch breaks neutral as well as the power lines, you can bond on-board on the generator neutral, and not on the shore neutral. That way the correct bonding follows the power selector switch.
 
Thanks for the advice but here is another question. If I am not tripping the new pedastals, should I still be concerned? And why? Wouldn't I be chasing ghosts. This is such a black art. Makes me crazy.

I wouldn't be concerned, but would consider an annual examination of your system if you can do it yourself. If it's beyond your comfort level, I would consider bringing a professional to periodically inspect power inlet(s), the wiring of the breaker panel, Galvanic Isolator, isolation transformer and the GFI outlets. Simply, you are operating an electrical system in a somewhat corrosive environment subject to vibration. I look for corrosion, loosening fasteners, and test my GFI outlets.

Ted
 
The GFCI will trip if your boat is leaking current into the Ground (stray current in the water). for the(50A plug)j the current goes in via X2 hot line and must return via the neutral. If not then, you are leaking into the ground (water). unlike a house electrical system, the ground and the neutral are not connected in the boat. to troubleshoot you problem, please disconnect your boat from the dock and turn off any DC to AC inverter. Place a meter (ohmmeter) across Neutral and Ground, where it should be open circuit (infinite resistance). you should be able to find that one of your systems is leaking, due to corrosion or the neutral and ground connection that are swapped. good luck
 
I would suggest going back and re-checking because it's possible that you solved one problem, yet created another one in the process.


The neutral and ground do need to be bonded, but it's a questions of WHEN and WHERE. And to further complicate things, it varies from boat to boat depending on what sorts of power generation equipment you have. Plus there are lots of ways to solve the problem.


Here's how the grounding should be set up on a boat:


- The simple summary rule is that the always needs to be one, and only one, neutral to ground connection. Boat builders and AC equipment installers have always been sloppy about this, and the rise of RCDs is now calling them out on past bad practices.



- When on shore power, the neutral/ground bond is in the shore-side power system, and your boat should NOT bond neutral and ground. Many boats, like yours, have an on-board ground and it is causing RCDs to trip in new marinas. But in many cases, you disable an important safety feature if you just remove that bonding wire. Read on to see why.


- When using an on-board source of power, like a generator or inverter, you need to bond neutral and ground. But since you are not plugged into shore power and can't utilize that bonding point, the bonding needs to be done on-board the boat. This is typically done right at the generator or inverter, or at a central point in your power system. But this on-board bonding needs to be in place when using the generator or inverter, but disconnected when using shore power. This is where it gets tricky. You can see that the need for this, and how it needs to work will vary based on whether you have an inverter or generator.



- Some inverters have a neutral to ground bond that is switched along with the inverter's internal transfer switch. That will solve the problem for the inverter, but I have heard of issues where the switch isn't fast enough and still trips RCDs. And you need to keep in mind that you might have your generator running with or without the inverter, so you need to look at all possible combinations on your boat.


- Neutral/ground bonding can also be handled in the power selector switches where you select between generator or shore power. If the switch breaks neutral as well as the power lines, you can bond on-board on the generator neutral, and not on the shore neutral. That way the correct bonding follows the power selector switch.

Thanks!

One of the best explanations I've seen on the subject!!

Gonna copy to my reference files.

:thumb::thumb:
 
The GFCI will trip if your boat is leaking current into the Ground (stray current in the water). for the(50A plug)j the current goes in via X2 hot line and must return via the neutral. If not then, you are leaking into the ground (water). unlike a house electrical system, the ground and the neutral are not connected in the boat. to troubleshoot you problem, please disconnect your boat from the dock and turn off any DC to AC inverter. Place a meter (ohmmeter) across Neutral and Ground, where it should be open circuit (infinite resistance). you should be able to find that one of your systems is leaking, due to corrosion or the neutral and ground connection that are swapped. good luck


See post #7, but this isn't the complete story. You still need an on-board neutral to ground bond when running off generator or inverter. Otherwise you are circumventing the protections of the grounding system. Of course you can choose to do that, but do so knowingly.
 
Thanks for the advice but here is another question. If I am not tripping the new pedastals, should I still be concerned? And why? Wouldn't I be chasing ghosts. This is such a black art. Makes me crazy.


It's really not a black art, though lots of people don't fully understand it. But I suppose that's what causes something to be called a Black Art :)


The way I see it, all these electrical recommendations/requirements are there for a good reason. They increase safety for people on the boat, working on the boat, and in the water. So I want them.


Lots of boats have been built in the past without these safety measures, or the measures have been compromised over time by changes or additions to the boat's electrical system. If my boat were compromised, I would at least want to know about it. And more likely than not I would want to fix it.


A tripping ECD is a good litmus test. If the breaker trips, there is a high probability that you have a compromised safety system. The only thing I can think of that can trip an ECD that is not reflective of a safety risk are fault indicators for ground isolators that draw too much current. This was brought up earlier.


The short coming in relying only on a tripping ECD as an indicator of problems is that it only tests your wiring when on shore power. It doesn't test for proper neutral ground bonding when on inverter or generator. I would want to verify those parts via inspection and/or testing.
 
It just dawned on me as to why, when on inverter or generator, there must be a bond at the source. Same as in household wiring where the neutral and safety wires return to the same bus in tne panel.
See post #7, but this isn't the complete story. You still need an on-board neutral to ground bond when running off generator or inverter. Otherwise you are circumventing the protections of the grounding system. Of course you can choose to do that, but do so knowingly.
 
Thank you so much for your observations and gentle advice. Finally, after six years or ownership and extensive reading I think I now have a decent understanding. It is a black art in the sense that, for some folks, these systems are difficult to understand. I think the disconnect for me is that we are, in a sense, dealing with two systems, shore power and on-board power.
It's really not a black art, though lots of people don't fully understand it. But I suppose that's what causes something to be called a Black Art :)


The way I see it, all these electrical recommendations/requirements are there for a good reason. They increase safety for people on the boat, working on the boat, and in the water. So I want them.


Lots of boats have been built in the past without these safety measures, or the measures have been compromised over time by changes or additions to the boat's electrical system. If my boat were compromised, I would at least want to know about it. And more likely than not I would want to fix it.


A tripping ECD is a good litmus test. If the breaker trips, there is a high probability that you have a compromised safety system. The only thing I can think of that can trip an ECD that is not reflective of a safety risk are fault indicators for ground isolators that draw too much current. This was brought up earlier.


The short coming in relying only on a tripping ECD as an indicator of problems is that it only tests your wiring when on shore power. It doesn't test for proper neutral ground bonding when on inverter or generator. I would want to verify those parts via inspection and/or testing.
 
Not sure, but if you put your ELCI between the AC source selector switch and the main panel, would that resolve the issue?

Not convenient. If it works on the whole boat from shore power and your genset is correct/easy to verify...then your boat is probably OK.

Any expert agree/disagree?
 
Three years ago we started tripping the new dock wiring setups. The solution was to redo all the 110s to a single buss and the buss then tied at only one point to the ships ground. Cheaper than an IT and it solved the wring problem.

Also we put in an inverter bypass switch which was an additional thought to alleviate the potential issue. Plus the bypass still allows shore or genset power to feed the vessel in the event of an inverter failure.

bshillam's new vessel in being docked in BC never would have suffered new GFCI shutdowns as BC docks aren't headed in that direction, yet.
 
It just dawned on me as to why, when on inverter or generator, there must be a bond at the source. Same as in household wiring where the neutral and safety wires return to the same bus in tne panel.


Exactly. On a boat, the "source" is moving around from place to place. On land it stays put, so is easier to wire properly, and have it stay that way.
 
Is there an easy way to determine if the generator bonds the neutral and ground when running? Maybe with an ohmmeter between the neutral and ground at the main electrical panel?
 
Is there an easy way to determine if the generator bonds the neutral and ground when running? Maybe with an ohmmeter between the neutral and ground at the main electrical panel?




Probably. Leave the generator off, and make sure your test point isn't powered by an inverter. Align any selector switches as though you will be powering the boat off the generator, and see if there is continuity between Neutral and Ground. Testing at the outlets would probably be best. Then if you change the selector switches as though using shore power, you should lose continuity between neutral and ground.


But proceed with caution, and if you are at all unsure, seek help. Boats can be set up is so many ways that it's nearly impossible to say what you should expect from any test without seeing the boat's actual wiring. So if you get different results from what I describe, it just means you need to investigate further to see how it's intended to work.
 
New Electrical Code

My understanding - based on a 2019 club cruise to a brand new marina, two nights of 90+ degree weather with no dock power - is that the limit on a slip GFI is now 30 ma and the entire branch/dock is 100ma. Many/most boats will be ok w the 30 ma limit, but many/most combinations of boats will trip the 100ma GFI. On my 2007 Mainship, had to replace the galvanic isolator and fix a couple of wiring issues. Done by marine electrician. Fortunately done the prior year to address issue at home slip, so I wasn't part of the problem.

I am reasonably competent with household wiring. I do not work on boat 120V wiring. Complexities of shore power, generator, inverter, grounding, etc. And the risk is too large - even if everyone on the boat is safe, you risk anyone in the water. Hire a marine electrician if you are not expert and experienced.
 
Agreed, I'll be hiring a pro. Moved the boat to another slip though this weekend. I think there might be an issue with the power pole. I had the main breaker off no power going to any system on the boat and it still tripped. I only had the power plug plugged in. I am the first boat in this section of the marina so not sure if they need to double check things on their side. I'll report back.
 
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