Electric Outboards

[ranger58sb]

Even if the boat is totally electric, no diesels on board, it is pollution relocation. Building high voltage transmission lines cost BIG buck. Then there is the cost of building new power plants due to increased demand. Every step of a building new facilities creates more pollution. Everything costs

Wifey B: I'm just a plain simple girl so perhaps need your help. Will you please explain what high voltage transmission lines have to do with electric boats? I mean not like they plug in and boat and have 100 mile long extension cords. Last I knew they didn't cause you to build new power plants either. At least put a better segue please.

I suspect his point was simply that nice, clean electric energy on an electric boat...

Came from somewhere... and the combination of the creation and distribution processes comes with a significant resource tail... including additional potential pollution points along the way.

-Chris

 

[socalrider]

You forgot to mention that the generation of the power itself, after you build the infrastructure, is also not green. It could be more efficient perhaps, but still it's reallocation. And then someday there will be huge numbers of huge batteries to be disposed of or recycle, but hey, let's not put too much thought into this, it's easier not to.

I assure you that a lot of thought is being put into this.

It's intellectually dishonest to criticize an improvement because it's not perfect.

It's like the tired argument about the carbon content of solar panels being manufactured at grid-tied factories. Sure, there's an impact there, but study after study has shown that it's a tiny fraction of the avoided carbon from the life of the modules - this was studied and put to bed decades ago. Yet you hear the same argument over and over and over again.

 

[ranger58sb]

I've been looking at Elco's electric outboards, with the idea of mating a 20-hp (-ish) version to an 11' (-ish) console dinghy...

It's apparently not easy or inexpensive to pull that off, because the 48V "fuel" supply (conceptually purchased all up-front) comes in either several very heavy (relative to the boat size) lead-acid batteries (wet, AGM, gel, whatever) or lighter weight but fairly expensive LiFePO4 lithium battery packs. IOW, no free lunch.

Especially for us, since we're lightweights when it comes to actually using a dinghy -- for example, I could imagine 10 gallons of gas lasting us 5 years -- if 10 gallons of ethanol gas would actually remain usable for 5 years. In fact, the reason I started looking at electric outboard options specifically because we normally use so little gas per season that the stuff goes stale faster than we can use it.

(Yes, tried all the additives. No joy, at least with our previous-previous carbureted 5-hp/1-cylinder Suzuki. We had better luck with its fuel-injected replacement, but still... bypassing gasoline issues seems attractive.)

Of course we might use it more often if we had a nifty console dinghy, but the point remains.

-Chris

 

[cardude01]

I have both an Epropulsion outboard for the dinghy plus a gas 15hp efi Suzuki that’s mounted on a bracket on the stern of the big boat.

For long trips and lots of use I use the 15hp, but it’s so much easier to mount the electric outboard. I have to use a crane to mount the gas engine.

 

[backinblue]

I assure you that a lot of thought is being put into this.

It's intellectually dishonest to criticize an improvement because it's not perfect.

It's like the tired argument about the carbon content of solar panels being manufactured at grid-tied factories. Sure, there's an impact there, but study after study has shown that it's a tiny fraction of the avoided carbon from the life of the modules - this was studied and put to bed decades ago. Yet you hear the same argument over and over and over again.

You are correct, but it is also intellectually dishonest to let people think that electrcity comes with no carbon footprint and that if all cars were electric that all our prolems would magically go away. I'm all for the advancements, but lets be honest about it and do it logically and in a way that we can support. The current war against oil and gas and coal is hurting the US and actually making the planet more dirty because the fuel is still needed and still being produced, but just not as much domestically. So instead its produced elsewhere in a less evironmentally friendly way and has to be shipped to us at greater cost both in dollars and to the environment.

 

[KnotYet]

You are correct, but it is also intellectually dishonest to let people think that electrcity comes with no carbon footprint and that if all cars were electric that all our prolems would magically go away. I'm all for the advancements, but lets be honest about it and do it logically and in a way that we can support. The current war against oil and gas and coal is hurting the US and actually making the planet more dirty because the fuel is still needed and still being produced, but just not as much domestically. So instead its produced elsewhere in a less evironmentally friendly way and has to be shipped to us at greater cost both in dollars and to the environment.

Nobody says or thinks that.
An improvement is not a cure-all.
The sooner we stop burning coal the better, economically and environmentally.
The marketplace will determine how fast oil and gas will be replaced.
The marketplace already determines where oil is produced and where it is used.

 

[backinblue]

Nobody says or thinks that.
An improvement is not a cure-all.
The sooner we stop burning coal the better, economically and environmentally.
The marketplace will determine how fast oil and gas will be replaced.
The marketplace already determines where oil is produced and where it is used.

Respectfully, sometimes the govt decides, not the marketplace. What good does it do to shut down all our coal-burning plants while other countries are building them (and likely not as clean)? If our govt retricts gas and oil production, it gets produced elsewhere because the market demands it. Again, not as cleanly as produced in the US. Global warming is exacly that, a global problem that needs to be solved. The US is so self-important that we think that it's our problem to solve and that we can.

 

[mahal]

Or proof that busniesses are closing and people and businesses are leaving the state. Shuttered stores don't require much energy mid-day anymore.

WHAT?

Regarding people leaving the state, don't think that we Californians see this as a bad thing.

 

[socalrider]

Respectfully, sometimes the govt decides, not the marketplace. What good does it do to shut down all our coal-burning plants while other countries are building them (and likely not as clean)? If our govt retricts gas and oil production, it gets produced elsewhere because the market demands it. Again, not as cleanly as produced in the US. Global warming is exacly that, a global problem that needs to be solved. The US is so self-important that we think that it's our problem to solve and that we can.

Coal plants are not being shut down by the government. Coal retirements under Trump were higher than under Obama. They are being shut down because they can't compete, even on a marginal cost basis, with renewables or natural gas.

 

[sbman]

Nobody says or thinks that.
...

This is not true, every piece of marketing and propaganda calls it 'emissions free'. The majority of people that aren't technical truly believe that an electric car or other electric thing is 'emissions free'.

 

[KnotYet]

This is not true, every piece of marketing and propaganda calls it 'emissions free'. The majority of people that aren't technical truly believe that an electric car or other electric thing is 'emissions free'.

Electric vehicles themselves are emissions free but who is saying they have no
carbon footprint, which is what I responded to in backinblue's earlier comment?

The people I know that have bought electric cars are among the most informed
about the fine details of the reasons for their purchase and the plusses and minuses.

 

[backinblue]

WHAT?

Regarding people leaving the state, don't think that we Californians see this as a bad thing.

Well when tourists stop coming to SF, and stores close, and the streets are occpied mostly by homeless and criminals, you might want to be a little concerned. Property values will decline accordingly. Doesn't end well if the current trends are not changed.

 

[backinblue]

Electric vehicles themselves are emissions free but who is saying they have no
carbon footprint, which is what I responded to in backinblue's earlier comment?

The people I know that have bought electric cars are among the most informed
about the fine details of the reasons for their purchase and the plusses and minuses.

I am not saying you don't know better, just that they are marketed that way. BTW, I just looked recently, and even though there is a general shortage of cars, especially used ones, there are many Tesla's for sale with less than 10K miles and a year or 2 old. Look at Carvana and compare to other brands. Especially intersting since there are less Teslas on the road than most other car models. I can only assume that owners quickly find out that the reality of owning an electric car is not as good as the hype. I have no doubt we'll all be driving electric cars some day, but it can't be rushed or forced.

 

[socalrider]

Well when tourists stop coming to SF, and stores close, and the streets are occpied mostly by homeless and criminals, you might want to be a little concerned. Property values will decline accordingly. Doesn't end well if the current trends are not changed.

This I agree with. SF is a mess right now, PDX as well.

I am not saying you don't know better, just that they are marketed that way. BTW, I just looked recently, and even though there is a general shortage of cars, especially used ones, There are many Tesla's for sale with less than 10K miles and a year or 2 old. Look at Carvan and compare to other brands, Especially intersting since there are less Teslas on the road than most other car models. I can only assume that owners quickly find out that the reality of owning an electric cars not as good as the hype. I have no doubt we'll all be driving electric cars some day, but it can't be rushed or forced.

Looking at Cavana the *lowest* priced Model 3 is a 2019 Standard Range+ with 39,000 miles for $44,000, $1000 less than the price of the same model brand new!

I just bought a new Model 3 a few months ago & it's fantastic; makes my parents' 3-series feel like a tractor. Highly recommend taking a test drive!

 

[Benthic2]

Tell that to the people who froze in Houston last winter.

Texas wants to be an unregulated state seperate from the rest of the country. They got what they deserved. There are plenty of states that manage their power grid just fine when it gets cold. Texans chose to have a sub standard power grid and every 10 years or so it bites them in the butt. Don't blame their ignorance on clean energy.

 

[backinblue]

This I agree with. SF is a mess right now, PDX as well.



Looking at Cavana the *lowest* priced Model 3 is a 2019 Standard Range+ with 39,000 miles for $44,000, $1000 less than the price of the same model brand new!

I just bought a new Model 3 a few months ago & it's fantastic; makes my parents' 3-series feel like a tractor. Highly recommend taking a test drive!

Not arguing any of that, but how do you explain so many used model 3 for sale compared to a similarly priced gas car like a BMW for instance? Few if any BMW, but dozens of pages of model 3's listed. Not everyone is as happy as you are.

 

[socalrider]

Not arguing any of that, but how do you explain so many used model 3 for sale compared to a similarly priced gas car like a BMW for instance? Few if any BMW, but dozens of pages of model 3's listed. Not everyone is as happy as you are.

I see 199 Model 3's when I search, and 309 BMW 3-series. 27,000 cars in total

 

[backinblue]

I see 199 Model 3's when I search, and 309 BMW 3-series. 27,000 cars in total

As usual, data can be manipulated to support any argument. To make it apples to apples, try searcing for used cars between 2020 and 2022 and see what you get. Then consider how many BMWs are on the road compared to Teslas.

Just like you can say the number of people hospitalized has doubled in the last week in a given area. Sounds dramatic unless the number went from 2 people to 4 people. Or maybe the infection rate has tripled but in reality it went from 1 in 1000 to 3 in 1000. Inconsequential. Just an example to show that you need to look a little deeper than just to accept a data point as stated.

 

[mahal]

Well when tourists stop coming to SF, and stores close, and the streets are occpied mostly by homeless and criminals, you might want to be a little concerned. Property values will decline accordingly. Doesn't end well if the current trends are not changed.

I don’t buy into irrational fears. Not worried about a decline in property values. Although it’d be nice if it dropped so that more of the younger generation can be homeowners.


Life here is great. It’s almost 70 degrees and full sun where I am.


You sound like my father-in-law. He too is worried about electric cars polluting and California falling apart. I wonder if you watch the same news channel.

 

[OldDan1943]

This is not true, every piece of marketing and propaganda calls it 'emissions free'. The majority of people that aren't technical truly believe that an electric car or other electric thing is 'emissions free'.

In truth, they are not 'emission free'. They are emission relocated. The power plant is out of town.

Telsa recently installed about 20 charging stations in a Publix mall. Two things wrong with that. One, the charging stations are located at the far end of the mall that was never used before. Two, the quality of the mall one might say is not conveniently located to the rest of the world.

 

[backinblue]

I don’t buy into irrational fears. Not worried about a decline in property values. Although it’d be nice if it dropped so that more of the younger generation can be homeowners.


Life here is great. It’s almost 70 degrees and full sun where I am.


You sound like my father-in-law. He too is worried about electric cars polluting and California falling apart. I wonder if you watch the same news channel.

Irrational? If you don't think many of our major cities are in decline (not just CA) then you have a strange sense of reality. I'm not going to debate it here, the crime statistics speak for themselves.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: Let's try a little exercise here. Just seems to me that younger people are more open to new technology and changes than older. Older seem to like to cling to the good old days. Nothing wrong, not criticizing, not saying everyone, but just some of those who are older.

So, for a moment, thank back to 30, 40, 50 years ago. Was there new technology then and were you perhaps on the other side, wanting to try the new while your parents or grandparents were opposed to change?

I'm just suggesting resistance to change is a normal human trait, but perhaps when we're younger, we're more open and as we're older we become more resistant. It probably all balances act and makes us move forward at a better controlled rate and manage the improvements more carefully.

I think of music tastes. I doubt we have many here who are rap fans. Yet, how did your grandparents feel about Buddy Holly and then Elvis and then the Beatles. Hubby and I love music and we have a music room and sing often, but we don't rap. Now, I don't dismiss it. It's music that younger people can relate to.

I notice some here who are very forward thinking but it relates to jobs they had, work they did. I know we're that way on computers and phones and so on boat electronics. If we were just a retired couple with no business, I'm sure we'd be different. It's like hubby discussing battery powered weed wackers. Not like he ever uses one, but we're in the hardware business so he's studied them and knows what sells.

I can't even imagine the next 20 years but I'll fully embrace it and one reason is we surround ourselves by younger people and by technology and we just get exposed to things we wouldn't otherwise. Plus, in my mind, I'm still 21 and never intend to act my age. But now even my 21 year old playmates are 33 and 23. Guess got to find some 18 year olds to keep me going.

These are very interesting topics but the divide on them is just very natural and normal. Back to my seat now.

 

[OldDan1943]

WifeyB, I thrive on music from the 30s and 40s and most of the classical music.

 

[KnotYet]

BandB, the usual subjects have weighed in with their standard anti-progressive
rhetoric to the point that the valid and interesting OP topic is basically forgotten.
How exactly does urban crime relate to electric outboards?
And so it goes...

 

[BandB]

BandB, the usual subjects have weighed in with their standard anti-progressive
rhetoric to the point that the valid and interesting OP topic is basically forgotten.
How exactly does urban crime relate to electric outboards?
And so it goes...

Wifey B: Most occurs when it's dark so we need more lights. You didn't connect that. You're right, they want to insert some bit of their social and political rhetoric into every possible thread. But when they go so far off topic, it just diminishes the impact of any possible point they might have.

 

[OldDan1943]

BandB, the usual subjects have weighed in with their standard anti-progressive
rhetoric to the point that the valid and interesting OP topic is basically forgotten.
How exactly does urban crime relate to electric outboards?
And so it goes...

someone stole the electric outboard and or battery?

 

[sbman]

The issue with electric outboards always comes back to the same thing, energy density and cost of storage in batteries. Until there is a revolutionary change in battery technology and/or pricing that reaches consumer use, electric outboards and electric power yachts will remain in the limited use/ limited attainability category. There's just no denying the physics and economics of it.

Comparison to electric cars is an apples to oranges comparison, electric cars are successful by a number of means, few of which apply to electric outboards.

The government isn't going to subsidize pricing on them, you can't reduce the drag (and therefore increase range) of the boat it's attached to, and you can't change the power required to get and keep a boat on plane. There is no regenerative braking to capture energy from and solar's energy density is dismal for the requirement as well.

When a battery revolution happens, electric outboards in the 10HP+ range will make a grand entrance and life will be good and folks can argue over whether to plug their dingy charger or their shore power into the 50A socket for a quick recharge.

 

[backinblue]

Wifey B. I get what your saying but here's another way to look at it. Maybe older people are not reluctant to change, but are just not as gullible to believe everything that the media tells them. Call it wisdom or whatever, but maybe we are just more likely to question things rather than just accept them blindly. Afterall, we have many more years of experience and have seen a lot during our lives. I've always been an early adopter of technology. I bought a CD player for music long before they became the default player of recorded music. (BTW, why are they still in many new cars????) I paid a good portion of a week's salary for it some 30+ years ago. I bought an LCD flat screen TV, huge for the time at 37", when most were still watching tube sets.

I can't speak for everyone, but I accept and welcome change. Just because I don't believe everything that politicains try to sell and the liberal media supports, does not mean that I want things to remain the same or that I fear changes in technology. 20 years from now is hard to imagine but I'm sure it will be laughable when people realize that today we travel with a 10lb bag containing a laptop and chargers and headsets and even cell phones! So I am a little offended (but not really because anyone here can have whatever opinion they want of me) that you assume that since I don't fully embrace the "green new deal" and similar thinking, that I am just an old man who doesn't want anything to change while I am still alive. That's far from true for me at least.

 

[backinblue]

someone stole the electric outboard and or battery?

lol!

 

[backinblue]

The issue with electric outboards always comes back to the same thing, energy density and cost of storage in batteries. Until there is a revolutionary change in battery technology and/or pricing that reaches consumer use, electric outboards and electric power yachts will remain in the limited use/ limited attainability category. There's just no denying the physics and economics of it.

Comparison to electric cars is an apples to oranges comparison, electric cars are successful by a number of means, few of which apply to electric outboards.

The government isn't going to subsidize pricing on them, you can't reduce the drag (and therefore increase range) of the boat it's attached to, and you can't change the power required to get and keep a boat on plane. There is no regenerative braking to capture energy from and solar's energy density is dismal for the requirement as well.

When a battery revolution happens, electric outboards in the 10HP+ range will make a grand entrance and life will be good and folks can argue over whether to plug their dingy charger or their shore power into the 50A socket for a quick recharge.

There has aleady been a revolution in battery technology, but there will certainly be more, and I agree it is needed before it really becomes practical for things like large outboards and jet planes.