Dock Hands and the Bow Line

[dhays]

Recently we encountered dock hands that would take a line off a cleat as load comes on because it starts to creak. "That's not a noise dock lines make! It was going to break!". Looking around the marina I realized it was almost entirely small boats. (<21'). It made one (attempted) use of a spring line a little "exciting"..... all's well that ends well....

I have been experimenting with the use of a spring line for docking at my home slip. I made up an old piece of three strand to use at my home slip. The idea is that a very large loop can be tossed over a dock cleat and then rudder and power will bring the side of the boat to the dock. Unless there is no wind and I am very gentle, there is a bit of creaking. My crew think I'm crazy but so far it has worked pretty well.

 

[Northern Spy]

I have been experimenting with the use of a spring line for docking at my home slip. I made up an old piece of three strand to use at my home slip. The idea is that a very large loop can be tossed over a dock cleat and then rudder and power will bring the side of the boat to the dock. Unless there is no wind and I am very gentle, there is a bit of creaking. My crew think I'm crazy but so far it has worked pretty well.

It works great. Especially for single handing.

 

[drb1025]

I have been experimenting with the use of a spring line for docking at my home slip. I made up an old piece of three strand to use at my home slip. The idea is that a very large loop can be tossed over a dock cleat and then rudder and power will bring the side of the boat to the dock. Unless there is no wind and I am very gentle, there is a bit of creaking. My crew think I'm crazy but so far it has worked pretty well.

Where is the spring line attached to your boat? I have two cleats between the bow and stern and am wondering which would work better for docking. I am guessing the cleat forward of amidship would be better.

 

[AusCan]

I have been experimenting with the use of a spring line for docking at my home slip. I made up an old piece of three strand to use at my home slip. The idea is that a very large loop can be tossed over a dock cleat and then rudder and power will bring the side of the boat to the dock. Unless there is no wind and I am very gentle, there is a bit of creaking. My crew think I'm crazy but so far it has worked pretty well.

That is how I dock almost every time, even if there is assistance at the dock. No bowline is required. The midship spring line alone will hold the boat tight against the dock while idling in gear in all but windiest conditions. Easy when singlehanded. Even easier with 2.
It's much safer than having people pulling on a bow line to move a heavy boat, or jumping from boat to dock in a panic.

 

[AusCan]

I am guessing the cleat forward of amidship would be better.

Usually - but every boat is different. Tie it off to the end dock cleat and put the boat in gear with the wheel turned hard away from the dock. See what happens.

 

[ranger58sb]

Where is the spring line attached to your boat? I have two cleats between the bow and stern and am wondering which would work better for docking. I am guessing the cleat forward of amidship would be better.

If it's a forward spring, I'd guess the forward midship cleat for backing down, too. And if it's an aft spring, I'd guess the aft midship cleat would work best when you go ahead on that. But it really depends on how the pivot points work on your boat, so a trial would tell you...

That is how I dock almost every time, even if there is assistance at the dock. No bowline is required. The midship spring line alone will hold the boat tight against the dock while idling in gear in all but windiest conditions. Easy when singlehanded. Even easier with 2.
It's much safer than having people pulling on a bow line to move a heavy boat, or jumping from boat to dock in a panic.

Yep, that's usually our approach, too. Especially on a face dock, but even in destination slips with 4-way tie-ups, a forward spring addresses lots of potential angst when we're docking stern-to. (An aft spring would have the same effect for us if docking bow-to.)

In our own 4-way slip, I have additional/temporary pre-set forward and aft springs mounted in unusual locations to facilitate single-handing. The temporary "forward" spring attaches to a pile I can reach from our cockpit, and leads to a stern cleat... so it acts as a brake to keep me off the main dock. The aft spring leads from the similar pile on the other side of the boat (end of finger pier) and reaches our aft midships cleat without too much traveling on my part. Which I apply first depends on whether wind is blowing in our out of the slip, but with those two lines on, I'm docked.

Ref OP's point, we do find that the less-well-trained dockhands we've encountered often seem to think bow and stern lines are useful... whereas we tend to think of those as minor details.

-Chris

 

[Xlantic]

"If it's a forward spring, I'd guess the forward midship cleat for backing down, too. And if it's an aft spring, I'd guess the aft midship cleat would work best when you go ahead on that. But it really depends on how the pivot points work on your boat, so a trial would tell you..."

That's more or less the advice given in this detailed and excellent Morgan's Cloud blog on coming alongside:
https://www.morganscloud.com/2017/03/24/10-tips-to-make-coming-alongside-docking-easy/

 

[Moonstruck]

Yes, with the fast currents we sometimes get into I have had dock hands get me into some frightening situations. The way I handle it now is to give instructions to my line handler(s) is to not pass a line ashore until I say so. Only you know your boat and your intentions. Even well meaning dock hands at Charleston City Marina and Beaufort SC Town Docks have screwed up directions. The dock master at Naples City Docks tied my line over freshly varnished teak. She didn't like my pointing it out to her. Wait outside the marina to judge conditions, set lines and fenders, then proceed.

 

[MYTraveler]

This appears to be an East Coast phenomenon - I've never seen a "Rudypoop" on the West Coast (maybe I just never go to marinas that have them). When I was cruising on the East Coat (and Canada)

On the west coast (my only experience, but from Canada, through baja / sea of Cortez, and some mainland), I have never experienced an overly aggressive dockhand. In Mexico, you can easily attract an army, but they are all very good at following instructions. In California, most "help" comes from other well-meaning boaters, but some of them do want to be in charge of the process. But we don't through a line until we are close enough to pass it, and the line we pass is the one (typically bow, sometimes mid-ship spring, never stern) we want tied to the nearest cleat. If someone doesn't want to help with that, it is easy enough for one of my crew to step to the dock and do it.

 

[ksanders]

I have a real life experience with a "helpful neighbor" and docking.

I was coming into my slip and the wind was blowing fairly hard.

I had a plan to do this all myself. I would come in at an angle, and loop my mid cleat tight. This would hold the boat while I got other lines deployed.

So...

My neighbor saw and came to help catch a line.

When my bow came over the edge of the walkway she grabbed my bow line and snubbed tight to a cleat. Way too tight.

This put me in a position where my bow line would not let me get the boat sideways against the walkway, so I was stuck at an angle with the wind blowing me away from the dock.

She did not know what to do. I tried reversing my outboard engine, but all it would do is pull the dock line tighter

I yelled out to release the dock line but the way she had tied it off to the cleat along with the tension of my boat made it impossible.

Then another neighbor helped and I threw him a line from the stern (a long ways) and he got the boat stabilized.

It was a fairly easy docking turned critical because a "nice neighbor" didn't understand the dynamics of docking or line handling.

 

[dhays]

Where is the spring line attached to your boat? I have two cleats between the bow and stern and am wondering which would work better for docking. I am guessing the cleat forward of amidship would be better.

Every boat is different. I dock bow-in. I also have two midship cleats, one for and aft of center. On my boat, the aft cleat works well for bow-in. I use a line with a spliced eye that goes over the cleat on the boat and then has a very large spliced loop to make it easy to drop over a dock cleat. The loop is big enough that when stretched out, it will run from the midship cleat to just shy of the aft of the boat.

Going forward into my slip, I or my wife will drop the large loop over the cleat on the dock on the starboard side. I continue to move the boat forward slowly. As the line starts to take up tension, I move the helm hard to port and move the endings in and out of gear gently. This keeps the stern moving to Starboard and the boat is driven alongside the dock. Once I am in contact with the dock along the length of the hull, I leave the engine in gear and then step off, attach a bow and stern great lines, and a stern spring. I then shut the engine off, remove my temporary looped spring and finish securing the boat.

 

[markpierce]

Packing as in sardines:

 

[dvd]

I suppose we have all had those "Aha" moments while docking that ended up being valuable learning experiences. One of mine came years ago when backing in to a slip under challenging wind conditions. It was a small, private marina with no "Rudypoops," but a helpful dock neighbor walked over & offered assistance. A line was tossed to him, but he just stood there doing nothing until he said "Captain, what do you want me to do with this line?" That was my learning moment, and I am grateful to him for doing the right thing, which is expecting guidance from the Captain. From then on, IF I ever handed off a line to someone on the dock, it came with clear instructions on what to do with it.

However, it is a rare event that I hand off a line. Not all dock helpers, employed or not, know what to do with the line, and I can't tell by looking at them which ones do. I have been accused of being a bit of a control freak (hey, I was an anesthesiologist before retiring - who wouldn't want their anesthesiologist to be a control freak?) and I am more comfortable depending on my boat handling skills and the experience of my crew (wife) than some person standing on the dock who may, or may not know what to do with the line passed to them.

 

[Seevee]

Agree with Northern Spy.

For every good captain and crew, there are 10 newbies without skills or experience.

There is no right way to dock, there are variations.

I agree that dock hands should take not give docking instructions...but often they save the day versus ruin it.

I got thrown out of a marina when I argued with the dockmaster who was in charge. I told him he assigns the slip and I discuss then dock the boat if the assignment is acceptable.

He was trrying to tell me throttle commands when he refused to tie off a spring preventing the current and wind from driving my anchor into the rear of a Flemming.

We disagreed and he told me to leave which I gladly did. Most marinas compliment me on boat handling...this was just a disagreement on who was responsible for what.

When I asked who was going to pay for the damages to the Flemming , he tossed me.

So you meet all kinds cruising....as they do too.

I'd hope that you posted comments about that marina..... the Captain is in charge until the boat is secure and engines shut down. There's nothing wrong with listening to a dock hand, but that's the Captain's choice, not the dockhand.

I'm sure we've all had the good and bad ones, but I could argue to be in control and not listen to a dock hand until you're sure his advise is what you want and acceptable.

I'm still learning how to deal with dock hands... tending to be to nice to them. I'm learning to yell a bit more and get more aggressive over the years. Seems like the learning process never ends.

Fortunately, never had a situation that couldn't be salvaged or abandon safely and just start the process over. Came close, however.

 

[Seevee]

I'm still perfecting my docking, and still a lot to learn. I like the loop trick. Used to do that and I think I'll go back to it.

I have often used a stern or bow line first and simply used power to pull to the dock. Works well most of the time.

I'm going to try the mid ship line more often... seems like it will work better especially with a bigger boat. I've done that occasionally with my smaller 28ft Sundancer, but I thought it would rip the cleat off the boat. (25kt winds). With the 40ft Mainship (new to me), I'd bet it would work well... need to get some training on that one.

 

[Gmarr]

I too am still perfecting.....or rather lessening my worrying about who is watching and commenting.

I like the loop trick and have been thinking about the mid ship cleat. It seems to be universal where it could be preset and used for both now or stern first entry? I shy from a bow or stern line being first due to one strong tug pivoting the boat (my first day "assisting" someone)

 

[psneeld]

I'd hope that you posted comments about that marina..... the Captain is in charge until the boat is secure and engines shut down. There's nothing wrong with listening to a dock hand, but that's the Captain's choice, not the dockhand.

I'm sure we've all had the good and bad ones, but I could argue to be in control and not listen to a dock hand until you're sure his advise is what you want and acceptable.

I'm still learning how to deal with dock hands... tending to be to nice to them. I'm learning to yell a bit more and get more aggressive over the years. Seems like the learning process never ends.

Fortunately, never had a situation that couldn't be salvaged or abandon safely and just start the process over. Came close, however.

This was not a dockhand but tbe dockmaster/ marina manager....

I would say ego but a few here would say the same anout me...unknowing my boat handling capabilities and situational awareness.

While many may not have an issue with poor dockhand advice, many might given wind and current in tbe extreme range and one bad decision by someone.

 

[Seevee]

This was not a dockhand but tbe dockmaster/ marina manager....

I would say ego but a few here would say the same anout me...unknowing my boat handling capabilities and situational awareness.

While many may not have an issue with poor dockhand advice, many might given wind and current in tbe extreme range and one bad decision by someone.

Psneeld,

I wouldn't care if it's the manager, owner or the president. It's still your boat and you are the captain, especially if he's doing something unacceptable to you. If you make a safe docking, it can always be moved a bit to satisfy the manager. I wouldn't patronize a jerk like that if he had the last marina on earth. There's absolutely no need for that.

I've been lucky, never experienced that. Sure, there's been a few jerks out there, but I haven't had any serious repercussions other that getting the occasional finger, or FU. Never from a manager.

But, thx for your post... guess one has to be prepared for anything out there.

 

[dhays]

I'm still perfecting my docking, and still a lot to learn. I like the loop trick. Used to do that and I think I'll go back to it.

I have often used a stern or bow line first and simply used power to pull to the dock. Works well most of the time.

I'm going to try the mid ship line more often... seems like it will work better especially with a bigger boat. I've done that occasionally with my smaller 28ft Sundancer, but I thought it would rip the cleat off the boat. (25kt winds). With the 40ft Mainship (new to me), I'd bet it would work well... need to get some training on that one.

I have only had this boat for a year, so I am still trying to figure things out. I do know that I have to be more careful than with the sailboat. There is a big difference between 56hp at idle vs 380hp at idle.

When not going into my home slip, I step off the boat from outside the pilot house holding a line attached to the forward midship cleat. My wife steps off the stern holding a stern breast line. I have the bow breast line looped over the rail where I step off the boat so I can grab it quickly after securing the midship line.

If there is a person offering to take a line, I will usually hand them the midship line. They can help if needed but if they turn out to be inexperienced and start to pull on it, then it does no harm. I have the advantage of bow and stern thrusters which makes everything a lot easier.

 

[jleonard]

Psneeld,

I wouldn't care if it's the manager, owner or the president. It's still your boat and you are the captain, especially if he's doing something unacceptable to you. If you make a safe docking, it can always be moved a bit to satisfy the manager. I wouldn't patronize a jerk like that if he had the last marina on earth. There's absolutely no need for that.

QUOTE]

Yes because the bottom line is that YOU know what you and your boat can do.

 

[dhays]

Yes because the bottom line is that YOU know what you and your boat can do.

Or in my case, I may know what I want to do but what I and my boat actually do sometimes is entirely another matter.

 

[jleonard]

Or in my case, I may know what I want to do but what I and my boat actually do sometimes is entirely another matter.

LOL. Seriously though, for example I have a stern thruster and when I tell a dockmaster/dockhand they hear "bow thruster" and thus try to give erroneous instructions.
My entire approach is based on what I think I can do and not what they think they can do in their 35 ft single screw downeaster.

 

[Gmarr]

Or in my case, I may know what I want to do but what I and my boat actually do sometimes is entirely another matter.

Yeah, Venn diagrams go through my head as I contemplate. "If I pull this hard, boats ass hits neighbor".

 

[Shrew]

Psneeld,

I wouldn't care if it's the manager, owner or the president. It's still your boat and you are the captain, especially if he's doing something unacceptable to you. If you make a safe docking, it can always be moved a bit to satisfy the manager. I wouldn't patronize a jerk like that if he had the last marina on earth. There's absolutely no need for that.

The problem here is there are actually two property owners involved. The boat owner/operator and the dock owner. Both have a vested interest in protecting their property. You cannot drive a dock into a boat.

We forgot that we are tying up to their dock at their discretion and permission. You don't have to relinquish control of your vessel, but they don't have to let you dock there either. They also don't have to standby and allow you to dictate how you want to approach their dock.

Most of the posts are operating under a false assumption that as captain you dictate how you're going to handle your boat. Which is not really the case once you start negotiating a tie to their property.

You do have the right to decide not to dock there and take your business elsewhere.

 

[HiDHo]

The dock hand can request what ever they want, they will get a 75' bow line. I gave up long ago trying to instruct them to cleat off the bow line midship so we can spring line into the dock. We are thrusterless, so the bow line is our bow thruster, the big barn door rudder and engine takes care of the stern.
The best marina staff are boaters themselves and show great professionalism when assisting the docking because it's hard to instruct someone in docking if you've never docked a boat yourself in wind, current, etc.
Very true, I often think what do they think the eye splice on the bitter end is there for, but no matter, I always go around and re-tie all the dock lines anyway.

 

[psneeld]

The problem here is there are actually two property owners involved. The boat owner/operator and the dock owner. Both have a vested interest in protecting their property. You cannot drive a dock into a boat.

We forgot that we are tying up to their dock at their discretion and permission. You don't have to relinquish control of your vessel, but they don't have to let you dock there either. They also don't have to standby and allow you to dictate how you want to approach their dock.

Most of the posts are operating under a false assumption that as captain you dictate how you're going to handle your boat. Which is not really the case once you start negotiating a tie to their property.

You do have the right to decide not to dock there and take your business elsewhere.

Horsepuckey....not in all my years have I ever heard such stuff....rec, pro and USCG.

Captain docks the vessel, not the port master, dockmaster, dock hand, marina oaner, etc...etc...

Thats why I left, cant argue with ego.

Sure they can ask you can leave....and that was that. Lost an easy $80 ....not because of me hitting his dock, not because I tied up wrong, not because I said or did anything wrong other than worry about hitting the boat in front of me because he would not get the spring on first. And he didnt like the way I suggested it.

I have seen plenty of dock crashing where marina owners and managers bit their tongues because ultimately the driver wasnt going to do it their way no matter what....gentle suggestions are the best we all can do....the captain drives or gets tossed....

 

[dhays]

You cannot drive a dock into a boat.

Actually, I have demonstrated that ability twice that I can recall in 45 years of handling boats larger than dinghies.

Most of the posts are operating under a false assumption that as captain you dictate how you're going to handle your boat. Which is not really the case once you start negotiating a tie to their property.

I disagree with this. The dockmaster can tell me where he wants me to dock, but I am the one that is responsible for how I am going to do it. If he/she doesn't like my docking skills or technique, he/she can certainly deny me the privilege of using their facility.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: Well, here's what I do. Toss a weighted line, not tied to anything, way over their head. They turn and leap for it, landing on the other side of the dock in the mud or water. I dock. Then go help them back on the dock and apologize for not knowing my own strength. :lol:

Actually never had any problems other than one guy started to tell me what to do when I was at the helm and called me "Little lady" and I informed him it was "Captain" and I was the only one issuing orders.

 

[markpierce]

Thankfully, we have no dock masters or line handlers here. We don't have any marina staff on the weekends either.

Have always relied on our docking abilities without help. (Note the many fenders.)

 

[seasalt007]

Wifey B: . Toss a weighted line.

Like a Monkey Fist. That works for me. Hit them in head just once with a good Monkey Fist and they will start obeying orders.