Do I Really Need an FCC License for VHF Use in Canada?

[psneeld]

Law, according to one famous formulation, is a command backed by a threat. My understanding is that US law requires you to have an FCC station license and operator’s permit to use your VHF radio outside the US, but there are no US authorities there to enforce it. The Canadians don’t require US visitors to have the license/permit, and they aren’t in the business of enforcing US laws in their territory. So there is nowhere both the command and the threat to enforce it exist in the same place. Which is why many people and maybe even most just don’t bother.

Of course, being the rule follower that I am, I have both the license and the permit, which are both available with very little hassle. But I don’t kid myself they there is any practical purpose to it.

I do not believe this for one second.

Not only can the USCG enforce the law if it is the day to do so, most any complaint by a federal government could result in enforcement.

As to the Canadiens having no requirement, I would love to see where they are not a signatory authority on the Treaty that requires ships stations licenses for international travel. Could be, I just haven't come across it yet. Canada can exempt CA vessels, but US law still applies to US vessels anyplace in the world and can be enforced (to a degree in many foreign waters). My guess is that CA also writes treaty agreements into their laws.

As to whether the law will be enforced....most are correct that it is highly unlikely...just like many laws broken don't result in enforcement until something else goes wrong.

 

[kthoennes]

I'm generally a follower of rules too, just reduces potential hassles in life. And like Sababa, I have the permit and the license too, it really wasn't a big deal. I've never quite understood the attraction of the Boat US MMSI number either, it's not that much more of a hassle to do the full blown "real thing" with the FCC. But for those who are harumph'ing about compliance and not being a scofflaw -- if the "authorities" on both sides of the border don't care enough to take any interest at all in my compliance, I'm not sure why I should worry more about rule compliance than they do.

Kind of like federal boat documentation in the US. I maintain it because it's nautical and salty and cool. It's of zero practical benefit otherwise, and I get a state title issued anyway which violates the federal regs I know, because no financial institution, county, state, or insurance company around here has any idea what federal boat documentation is, and they all insist on a state title. At some point you have to choose your bureaucratic poison and go for practical expediency.

Thread drift I know, but this reminds me of that Kafka story "Before the Law" where some poor schmuck spends his whole life waiting to be allowed into The Law and finally dies waiting on the steps, never quite getting in. Or that Philip Howard book "Death of Common Sense" where he argues that none of us can spend one day in the modern world without breaking a multiplicity of laws without even knowing it. We're all unwitting criminals committing new offenses every day.

 

[Comodave]

No, it doesn't, as the BoatUS MMSI is only in the US databases, not international ones. So outside of the US, a SAR agency will still see the MMSI, but they won't have an easy way to look up any info related to it.

Correct. And if they have the info they can do the usual checks before launching a full blown SAR which is a good thing.

 

[Sababa]

Thread drift I know, but this reminds me of that Kafka story "Before the Law" where some poor schmuck spends his whole life waiting to be allowed into The Law and finally dies waiting on the steps, never quite getting in. Or that Philip Howard book "Death of Common Sense" where he argues that none of us can spend one day in the modern world without breaking a multiplicity of laws without even knowing it. We're all unwitting criminals committing new offenses every day.

Or as Lavrentiy Beria, head of Joseph Stalin’s secret police, is supposed to have said: “Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime.” (Canadians are much nicer.)

 

[rslifkin]

I'm generally a follower of rules too, just reduces potential hassles in life. And like Sababa, I have the permit and the license too, it really wasn't a big deal. I've never quite understood the attraction of the Boat US MMSI number either, it's not that much more of a hassle to do the full blown "real thing" with the FCC. But for those who are harumph'ing about compliance and not being a scofflaw -- if the "authorities" on both sides of the border don't care enough to take any interest at all in my compliance, I'm not sure why I should worry more about rule compliance than they do.

The only advantage to the BoatUS MMSI is that it's cheaper, vs having to pay to renew a ship's station license every 10 years.

 

[rgano]

So how does all this apply to cruising in The Bahamas?

Technically, you are in a foreign country for purposes of some things, but for SAR, DEFINITELY not. I spent a lot of time on the US Navy base on Andros Island in from 2003 to 2012 where there is a USCG hangar on the helicopter field there usually occupied by a USCG helo.

An acquaintance of mine and his young daughter were sailing down the east side of the Bahamas on their way to his new duty station at Roosevelt Roads Naval Sation around 1989. They were in a remote anchorage when the child came down with appendicitis. His mayday call was aswered by the USCG as the coordinating agency, and he was ordered to gt her ashore to await rescue - it was DARK out. He did as ordered, and a few minutes later a black-painted Blackhawk with no lights dropped out of the sky. Some very heavily armed Americans told him to hand over his daughter and that there was no room for him. He later learned from the USCG which hospital she had been dropped off at in Miami, and that all was well.

You as an American got a real problem in the Bahamas and whichever flavor EPIRB you sound off, you will be serviced by the good old USA.

When I was Medivaced from the Andros base while there as a civilian contractor, the base arranged for a Bahamian civilian twin engine air ambulance plane which gathered me up at the nearby Andros airport and took me to Florida. I have no idea who paid the $30,000 price for that ride.

 

[Benthic2]

I think Canada will only require the operators license as the previous post says. But the US requires the station to be licensed if it's a US flagged vessel operating outside of the US.

Why does the US Gov't care what happens when you are outside the country ? I would think in Canada you follow their rules, here you follow US rules. Does the US CG have any authority outside the US ?

 

[rslifkin]

Why does the US Gov't care what happens when you are outside the country ? I would think in Canada you follow their rules, here you follow US rules. Does the US CG have any authority outside the US ?

The USCG has jurisdiction over US flagged boats anywhere in the world. As far as the license, my understanding is that licensing is an international agreement. Some countries (like the US) simply choose to waive this requirement for their own flagged boats within their waters.

 

[psneeld]

The USCG has jurisdiction over US flagged boats anywhere in the world. As far as the license, my understanding is that licensing is an international agreement. Some countries (like the US) simply choose to waive this requirement for their own flagged boats within their waters.

Good answer.

 

[twistedtree]

Some countries (like the US) simply choose to waive this requirement for their own flagged boats within their waters.

Exactly. Canada only exempts boats that are exclusively operated in Canadian water. This seems to apply to any boat of any flag, not just Canadian flagged boats. So if you come into Canada from anywhere else, Canada requires that you have a license. Thankfully they will recognize your FCC license.


Similarly, the US exempts recreational boats that are exclusively operated in US water. But any other boats in US waters need a license. Thankfully the US recognizes Canadian licenses.


But everyone seems to be focused on what you can get away with as opposed to what's required. That's disappointing.

 

[Comodave]

The USCG has jurisdiction over US flagged boats anywhere in the world. As far as the license, my understanding is that licensing is an international agreement. Some countries (like the US) simply choose to waive this requirement for their own flagged boats within their waters.

Absolutely,

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. rs. Your post #38. "...US flagged boats...". Is a boat that is state licensed only (not federally registered/documented) considered a US flagged boat?
Not trying to be difficult, here. I'm not even sure of the Canadian laws.

 

[Comodave]

Yes. It would be US flagged.

 

[rslifkin]

Greetings,
Mr. rs. Your post #38. "...US flagged boats...". Is a boat that is state licensed only (not federally registered/documented) considered a US flagged boat?
Not trying to be difficult, here. I'm not even sure of the Canadian laws.

Yes, it would be considered US flagged. For the purposes of Canada and the Bahamas, state registration would be no problem, as they're close enough that they're used to seeing it. If you go farther away from the US, the boat should be documented, as that's what most governments will expect to see (and they may be confused by a state registration).

 

[Sababa]

Canada only exempts boats that are exclusively operated in Canadian water. This seems to apply to any boat of any flag, not just Canadian flagged boats. So if you come into Canada from anywhere else, Canada requires that you have a license. Thankfully they will recognize your FCC license.


Similarly, the US exempts recreational boats that are exclusively operated in US water. But any other boats in US waters need a license. Thankfully the US recognizes Canadian licenses.

Here is how I believe it works: The Telecommunications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. § 351) requires any non-exempt "Ship of the United States" that is "navigated on the open sea" to have a radio and a station license. Section 403(i) of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 authorized the FCC to exempt "ship stations navigated on domestic voyages." Under this authority, the FCC amended 47 U.S.C. § 80.13 to exempt a "ship station [that] does not travel to foreign ports" or "make international communications" from the ship station license requirement.

The Canadians for their part exempt "radio apparatus used in a mobile station that is licensed or exempted by the responsible administration of another country" and operated by "a citizen of that other country" from the station license requirement of their own Radiocommunications Regulations. So as long as the U.S. doesn't require you to have a station license, the Canadians don't either.

I guess if you were in Canadian waters on the open sea and either en route to a Canadian port or transmitting internationally then your US exemption wouldn't cover you and you would be in violation of Canadian law. I also suppose the US could nab you after the fact if you had navigated on the open sea after visiting a Canadian port and didn't have a license. Not likely enforcement scenarios, but why not have a license just in case.

 

[Bob Cofer]

Direct from the FCC. Ships Station and Restricted Radio Operator.

 

[Alisske]

Are you asking if it's required, or if you will get caught? It's definitely required. I don't know if you will get caught.


The above summed it up well.

That being said, i will give you my opinion based on my experience, tempered by my “risk tolerance level”

If its a one off trip (at least for now) spend yuur time on more important things. I have gone internationally and no one cares. You wont get “caught” if everything goes well. What I mean by “well” is that you don’t get drunk, plow into an oyster farm, then get on your radio for a tow, In the case you did do that, they would add the charge/fine of the license on to the rest of thee charges they are putting against you. Lmao

That being said, you may have issues with boats US MMSI internationally. Ive heard both ways (it wont work/it will)

In my experience, it does work. I had a boat US MMSI and added AIS to my boat. Bermuda Radio picked up my signal and had my info from my MMSI when approaching the island. So i say it will work aand you’ll be fine

Go worry about other things!! Lol

 

[Alisske]

I did hear of at least one Canadian who was boarded by the USCG in US waters who was asked about the 'ship's station license". When it was discovered that there was none, the USCG confiscated all unlicensed radios leaving none. Not the enforcement method I would have expected (fine maybe)!

Sir. I in no way want to flame you. I have used this forum to settle my nerves before trips and to solve problems. I appreciate every member and their opinions.

That being said, I do want to challenge the above comment on a few points since its unsubstantiated information such as that, whose sole purpose is to support ones belief/post may lead the original Poster to cancel an extraordinary trip. When preparing for trips, there is so much to worry about and an unfounded comment might cause the original to take money/time away from things that could be more important.

I think it unfounded since the US coast guard would not confiscate a safety signaling device. (Maybe they took all but one? Maybe they escorted them to port and were not allowed to leave unless proper paper work was produced?)

Please post the source if you can. If substantiated, he could learn the details of the interaction and make an informed decision.

Again, no flame here. If offended, please accept my apologies in advance

 

[Comodave]

Are you asking if it's required, or if you will get caught? It's definitely required. I don't know if you will get caught.


The above summed it up well.

That being said, i will give you my opinion based on my experience, tempered by my “risk tolerance level”

If its a one off trip (at least for now) spend yuur time on more important things. I have gone internationally and no one cares. You wont get “caught” if everything goes well. What I mean by “well” is that you don’t get drunk, plow into an oyster farm, then get on your radio for a tow, In the case you did do that, they would add the charge/fine of the license on to the rest of thee charges they are putting against you. Lmao

That being said, you may have issues with boats US MMSI internationally. Ive heard both ways (it wont work/it will)

In my experience, it does work. I had a boat US MMSI and added AIS to my boat. Bermuda Radio picked up my signal and had my info from my MMSI when approaching the island. So i say it will work aand you’ll be fine

Go worry about other things!! Lol

They most likely got your information from the AIS.

 

[Alisske]

It really kind of amazes me how often we get these questions that amount to, "Do I really have to obey the law?"

I find it amazing that you said that.

Come on man……..Please consider that other folks financial status may not be the same as yours. Some folks need to make decisions about where to spend time and money or else the trip is not happening.

 

[Alisske]

They most likely got your information from the AIS.

Maybe?!? I thought i just put my boats US MMSI number. In and put the length and name of the boat

3rd edit, then I’m done. Lol.

 

[Bacchus]

Are you asking if it's required, or if you will get caught? It's definitely required. I don't know if you will get caught.





The above summed it up well.



That being said, i will give you my opinion based on my experience, tempered by my “risk tolerance level”



If its a one off trip (at least for now) spend yuur time on more important things. I have gone internationally and no one cares. You wont get “caught” if everything goes well. What I mean by “well” is that you don’t get drunk, plow into an oyster farm, then get on your radio for a tow, In the case you did do that, they would add the charge/fine of the license on to the rest of thee charges they are putting against you. Lmao



That being said, you may have issues with boats US MMSI internationally. Ive heard both ways (it wont work/it will)



Go worry about other things!! Lol

I have to agree with Alisske on this whole radio license subject.
It has come through loud and clear that the requirements state both Ships Station and Operator license is required to be legal.
The OP clearly stated his plan is for one trip into inland Canadian waters (largely on rivers and canals... with the exception of Lk Ont)
I seriously doubt SAR effort would be involved, and if so, would be hampered by not having both licenses. Does anyone really believe that at the mouth of the St Lawrence in US waters and NO license reqd any emergency response would be significantly different that a few miles N towards Kingston? Does the sky fall at that imaginary border line? Does your non- FCC MMSI work on one side of the border but get jammed somehow when you cross that line. Even more important would US or Cdn CG fail to respond or lend assistance?
I understand the comments that question why anyone would intentionally break any law... I seriously doubt even those that take that position can claim to be free of any transgressions... as in Never exceeded the speed limit knowingly... or failed to report a tax free online purchase on the income tax (a better question might be has ANYONE ever complied with that one.
Anyone hear that has cleared customs and NEVER failed to report 100% of what they were bringing in?

I will agree with those citing safety / SAR that are cruising international coastal waters or blue water but be realistic does anyone really believe the OPs boat could not be located on the Rideau, Richleu, ST Lawrence or Lk Ont?
Perhaps the responses might be different (but doubt it) if the OP simply asked how many cruising INLAND WATERS in Canada possess both licenses and how many do not.
Bacchus clear and back to regularly scheduled programming.

 

[koliver]

I have to agree with Alisske on this whole radio license subject.

I seriously doubt SAR effort would be involved, and if so, would be hampered by not having both licenses.

Does your non- FCC MMSI work on one side of the border but get jammed somehow when you cross that line. Even more important would US or Cdn CG fail to respond or lend assistance?

I will agree with those citing safety / SAR that are cruising international coastal waters or blue water but be realistic does anyone really believe the OPs boat could not be located on the Rideau, Richleu, ST Lawrence or Lk Ont?

I will add to my earlier post, that I have trained to be RCMSAR here at Saltspring Island, Canada. In that training, the existence of licensing for anyone about to be rescued did not come up. There is no reason whatsoever to fear that your license status would EVER have any bearing on whether a search would be thorough. Can you imagine the publicitiy?

Neither would any lack of a license inhibit JRCC from finding you. They find everyone who is within range of their radar, AIS, VHF, cell coverage, or whatever technology available to them. Not only does lack of a station license fail to upset the system, lack of an MMSI# also has no bearing on the effectiveness of any rescue.

As a further point of data, I was once helped, at night, by Victoria Traffic calling to ask if I was aware of the vessel that was on a collision course with me. When I zoomed out on my Radar, set to see sticks in my path, there was the other vessel. I have neither Station license, MMSI# or AIS, yet there was the helpful, watchful Traffic on ch11.

 

[twistedtree]

I think the Search and Rescue considerations in this case are minimal. SAR will still respond - they just won't have detailed info about your boat.



The issue is one of licensing. It's akin to not registering or documenting your boat, or allowing your drivers license to expire. It's illegal to operate under either condition - that's a black and white answer. Will you get caught is a different question, and nobody really knows the answer. All the debate here is over the likelihood of getting caught, and I think is what the OP was really asking.

 

[psneeld]

Anyone ever see proof that if a DSC radio is hooked to a GPS, it will still broadcast location without an MMSI?

I never have determined this, just curious. If a radio doesnt, that could impact SAR operations as to requiring you to verbally transmit a position in cases there was no other way to determine position.

 

[rslifkin]

Anyone ever see proof that if a DSC radio is hooked to a GPS will still broadcast location without an MMSI?

I never have determined this, just curious. If a radio doesnt, that could impact SAR operations as to requiring you to verbally transmit a position.

That's a good question. I'd expect no location with no MMSI, as I don't think the DSC features will work at all without an MMSI entered.

 

[twistedtree]

That's a good question. I'd expect no location with no MMSI, as I don't think the DSC features will work at all without an MMSI entered.

I believe that's correct.



Here's what Standard Horizon says in the GX6000:


"To be able to transmit a DSC distress call, MMSI number must be programmed"


Icom is silent on the matter in the M510 manual.


I suspect the behavior is stipulated by the DSC specifications rather than by vendor discretion, but I don't know for certain.

 

[twistedtree]

The OP isn't talking about running with no MMSI. He already has one in use - it's just a domestic MMSI. So I think any safety considerations are minimal.

 

[Seevee]

Personally, I am in the "follow the law" category, and don't really understand the "can't be bothered" crowd? JMHO. Canadians are also required to have a ship's license if travelling (operating the radio) in foreign waters.

I did hear of at least one Canadian who was boarded by the USCG in US waters who was asked about the 'ship's station license". When it was discovered that there was none, the USCG confiscated all unlicensed radios leaving none. Not the enforcement method I would have expected (fine maybe)!

That seem brutal and the punishment is way beyond the crime. Overboard, and surprised that it's even true. If so, that's where the LEOs get a back reputation.

 

[Seevee]

Here is how I believe it works: The Telecommunications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. § 351) requires any non-exempt "Ship of the United States" that is "navigated on the open sea" to have a radio and a station license. Section 403(i) of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 authorized the FCC to exempt "ship stations navigated on domestic voyages." Under this authority, the FCC amended 47 U.S.C. § 80.13 to exempt a "ship station [that] does not travel to foreign ports" or "make international communications" from the ship station license requirement.

The Canadians for their part exempt "radio apparatus used in a mobile station that is licensed or exempted by the responsible administration of another country" and operated by "a citizen of that other country" from the station license requirement of their own Radiocommunications Regulations. So as long as the U.S. doesn't require you to have a station license, the Canadians don't either.

I guess if you were in Canadian waters on the open sea and either en route to a Canadian port or transmitting internationally then your US exemption wouldn't cover you and you would be in violation of Canadian law. I also suppose the US could nab you after the fact if you had navigated on the open sea after visiting a Canadian port and didn't have a license. Not likely enforcement scenarios, but why not have a license just in case.

Thx for posting... that's the first reference I've seen to the actual agreement.