Cruiser instead of Trawler?

[lwarden]

From summing up all of your posts Sharked it seems a trawler like Mambo42's Defever would be a good fit, especially considering your budget. Or perhaps a Defever 44 or Tollycraft in the same size range. I would put the Bayliner 48 in that category as well as I don't consider them to be cruisers. I don't think a cruiser or sportfish is going to be a good choice considering your budget. A clean cruiser or sportfish in the 50' range is going to be closer to 500K. The trawler style is going to be far more livable as well.

We have been very happy with our Lindell which is sort of a sportfisher/convertable but we don't spend more than a week on it at a time. However, heading to the Bahamas from FL is somewhat like us heading to Catalina. Since Catalina is one of the few fun places to go in SoCal it was important we can get there in a reasonable amount of time but still it's about 80 miles one way. Having a boat that can do 18-20 knots means we can get over there in 4ish hours which means a 3-4 day weekend is feasible. The extra fuel to run at 18 knots $6 a gallon is an additional $400 for a trip, well worth it when it's snotty and you want to just get there.

If we had all the time in the world going trawler speed to get there and staying longer at trawler would be a better fit for us. Considering your use the speed doesn't sound important enough to deal with the downsides of owning a higher powered boat (and there are many).

 

[Sharked]

From summing up all of your posts Sharked it seems a trawler like Mambo42's Defever would be a good fit, especially considering your budget. Or perhaps a Defever 44 or Tollycraft in the same size range.

Trawler was my original plan, but with prices going up, a trawler in my budget of $200K it would need to be much older then I was planning. And being an older Defever or Tollycraft would most likely have lots of wood which I don't want.

That's why I was looking at other options like Meridan, Bayliner, and now sportfish/convertibles

 

[lwarden]

Trawler was my original plan, but with prices going up, a trawler in my budget of $200K it would need to be much older then I was planning. And being an older Defever or Tollycraft would most likely have lots of wood which I don't want.

That's why I was looking at other options like Meridan, Bayliner, and now sportfish/convertibles

Some Tollycrafts don't have much wood on the exterior. This one for example: https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1995-tollycraft-45-cockpit-motor-yacht-8988188/

 

[psneeld]

Longer isn't always "larger" as some have mentioned already, different designs can have quite a difference in both or either interior/exterior space.

Sometimes a visit is much more telling than "just a floorplan view".

 

[PPandE]

Wow, I looked away for a couple of days and the thread really morphed!

FWIW my experience starting twenty years ago was very similar to yours starting today. I lived well away from water and sport fishing boats but decided I wanted one. I had a budget to live within, wanted a tough seaworthy boat for cruising the Bahamas, so no long passages, and I wanted to cruise, anchoring out most nights. I planned to live aboard for three months at a time , wanted to travel slowly but have speed in reserve for safety and those rare days plagued by impatience.

First, people who fish are nuts. They will go out in anything so long as they can get back by happy hour. Second, they don’t mind burning fuel but if you throttle back those boats don’t burn any more than a trawler going slow. Third, they use lots of electricity. Poor ventilation means big a/c units and fishing means frozen bait and frozen catch. (Which also means you will probably get lots of refrigeration. Mine has 4)

My first boat was an ‘86 Hatteras 41C. And I still love that boat. She took very good care of us For twenty plus years cruising south Florida and the Bahamas in seas from mill pond smooth to higher than our tower. If I were shopping older sport fish or convertibles I’d stick to hatteras, Bertram and Viking. In that order.

I now have a 2006 Silverton 42C, a sister ship to your posted link available in Tennessee. It’s a great boat, it ain’t no hatteras, but it is a great boat.

Back in ‘97 when I bought the Hatt and again in ‘21 when I bought the Silverton I started the process the same way. Buy a ticket to where you want to shop and cruise and find a broker that you can work with. For me that was ft. Lauderdale because of the number of boats available and proximity to the islands. Walk some decks, learn what you like and don’t. Learn what you need and don’t. Be ready to pull the trigger the moment your boat presents itself.

My time on here is limited but I’ll be happy to shed as much light as I can on cruising in a sport fish. To me, thats the only type I’d have for cruising the Bahamas. Good luck!

 

[BruceK]

Sharked, you asked about forward cabins and noise. The main thing to beware of is "chine slap" which annoys,can keep you awake and some find intolerable. I think it relates to a chine indentation starting well fwd, the water hits there, a slap noise results.
I also looked in vain for a Meridian 491. There`s 391 berthed 2 away,big boat, huge slab hull sides compared to what I`m used to. You have lots of options but the Bayliner 4588/4788 gets a good rep imo.
Don`t factor out the sportfish. Sure the engines can be big but you can run at trawler speeds, they only slurp fuel at speed. You can get good accommodation and cockpit. Beware though, the ER can be a crawl space. But then Mainship, and that contradiction in terms, the Beneteau Swift Trawler, have an ER crawlspace. It`s something trawlers often do better.

 

[Sharked]

My first boat was an ‘86 Hatteras 41C. And I still love that boat. She took very good care of us For twenty plus years cruising south Florida and the Bahamas in seas from mill pond smooth to higher than our tower. If I were shopping older sport fish or convertibles I’d stick to hatteras, Bertram and Viking. In that order.

I now have a 2006 Silverton 42C, a sister ship to your posted link available in Tennessee. It’s a great boat, it ain’t no hatteras, but it is a great boat.

Why did you go from Hatteras to Silverton?

 

[PPandE]

Why did you go from Hatteras to Silverton?

I bought the best boat that I could afford and that was available when I was ready to buy. With Covid coming on strong prices were skyrocketing. In hindsight, I shouldn’t have sold the hatteras but I did move to a twenty year newer boat. That makes a huge difference in everything from electronics to upholstery. Also, as I’ve gotten older my cruising style has gotten much more benign. And I gotta admit, the stairs to the fly bridge are much easier to navigate than my old ladder.

 

[PPandE]

A few more thoughts on cruising the sport fish…

When cruising the Bahamas we really used our cockpit. A canvas sunshade attached at the bridge covering the pit made it a very usable outdoor area during the day and most are designed to be easily removed or retracted for fishing or evening lounging. The transom door to the swim platform was perfect for loading the dingy, especially with groceries or, in our case, dogs. The pit was also perfect for (obviously) fishing, rigging dive gear, grilling, entertaining and sundowners. It became the dirt home equivalent to a back porch

We stored our dingy on the bow, made possible by the spacious sport fish bow and an electric davit. Our 11’ rib with a 15hp 4 stroke could be launched and recovered single handed in calm conditions. At low speed we would just tow it but in rough conditions or high speed I felt better with it on the bow.

A word or two on speed. Our old hatteras had a pair of 450hp 2stroke Detroit diesels which were inefficient at low speed but still burned less than 3gph at 7kts. Most of the time we went everywhere at that speed and always pulled fishing lines. We rarely ate anything but fish. On the other hand, when you’re sitting in Florida and you really want to be in Bimini with only a one day weather window, a 20kt cruise is a nice, even if expensive, option. Same thing when you would really rather not be here when that hurricane arrives.

The biggest disadvantage is the admittedly tiny engine room, especially with those big detroits. My Silverton, with roughly the same floor space and horsepower has noticeably more room in the ER. But still tight.

I’ve never missed not having a lower helm. In fact, every trawler or cruiser with two helms that I have been on has left me thinking that it was a waste of very limited floor space. From the helm of a sport fish you have very good visibility of the entire boat for docking and the curtains can easily be closed for foul weather. I suppose that it could get cold up there when driving in the winter up north but in all my years of boating I’ve adamantly avoided boating in the winter up north.

Now, when you pull into a Bahamian anchorage get ready to be universally detested. The sail boaters will hate you because you’re a stink potter and the trawlers will snub you because you’re not a “real” cruiser and the other sporties will laugh simply because you deign to anchor at all. We solved that issue by buying two huge anchors, learning how to use them and having batteries and inverter sufficient to shut down the genny at night. Sharing our near endless supply of fresh water, ice and fish convinced our newest and best friends to forgive us the faux pas of sullying their anchorage with a cockpit and big engines.

 

[Sharked]

I bought the best boat that I could afford and that was available when I was ready to buy. With Covid coming on strong prices were skyrocketing. In hindsight, I shouldn’t have sold the hatteras but I did move to a twenty year newer boat. That makes a huge difference in everything from electronics to upholstery. Also, as I’ve gotten older my cruising style has gotten much more benign. And I gotta admit, the stairs to the fly bridge are much easier to navigate than my old ladder.

If you were in my shoes today would you lean towards an older Hatteras or a newer boat like your Silverton?

 

[psneeld]

If you were in my shoes today would you lean towards an older Hatteras or a newer boat like your Silverton?

Having driven many of both and owned a Silverton 37 Convertible, I say go with either, the one in good shape and a decent price wins.

My only complaint on my 1986 Silverton was lousy wiring. I think newer models are much better and I have seen older Hatteras's that were nightmares too.

PPandE's comment - "A word or two on speed. Our old hatteras had a pair of 450hp 2stroke Detroit diesels which were inefficient at low speed but still burned less than 3gph at 7kts. Most of the time we went everywhere at that speed and always pulled fishing lines. We rarely ate anything but fish. On the other hand, when you’re sitting in Florida and you really want to be in Bimini with only a one day weather window, a 20kt cruise is a nice, even if expensive, option. Same thing when you would really rather not be here when that hurricane arrives." ....I can totally agree with. The run between the Bahamas and US can be a real PIA waiting game for slower boats...especially smaller ones that can't take the short, steep seas the Gulf Stream often coughs up.

 

[Mako]

Longer isn't always "larger" as some have mentioned already, different designs can have quite a difference in both or either interior/exterior space.

This caught my attention as I'm considering converting a commercial fishing boat design. There is significantly less interior room than a boat designed for recreation, and a fraction of the aft-cabin yachts. But there are other positives. Every boat is a compromise.

 

[PPandE]

If you were in my shoes today would you lean towards an older Hatteras or a newer boat like your Silverton?

Condition rules. I’d go with the better boat.

Given a perfect condition say a 30yr old Hatt vs a 15yr old Silverton, Id go with the Hatt. If both are in equally poor condition, the Silverton only because parts availability and price will be better on the newer boat.

The OEM interior design and luxury will be nicer on the newer boat as well. I’d also consider which layout I liked best. E.g. my Hatt had an open floor plan combo galley up and salon without a dinette. The Silverton has the galley down with both a sofa and dinette in the salon. At first i didn’t like it but it has grown on me. Both have equally dysfunctional guest cabins, stand up showers and walk around “queen” beds (that full size sheets fit perfectly).

 

[Sharked]

Condition rules. I’d go with the better boat.

Given a perfect condition say a 30yr old Hatt vs a 15yr old Silverton, Id go with the Hatt. If both are in equally poor condition, the Silverton only because parts availability and price will be better on the newer boat.

The OEM interior design and luxury will be nicer on the newer boat as well. I’d also consider which layout I liked best. E.g. my Hatt had an open floor plan combo galley up and salon without a dinette. The Silverton has the galley down with both a sofa and dinette in the salon. At first i didn’t like it but it has grown on me. Both have equally dysfunctional guest cabins, stand up showers and walk around “queen” beds (that full size sheets fit perfectly).

Thoughts on this:
https://www.denisonyachtsales.com/yacht-listings/broker/52-Hatteras-1985-Miami-Florida/2797207

I am reading conflicting reviews on the Detroit diesels, some say they are good as parts or cheap, others say they are fuel guzzlers and I should look for newer john deer or cat engines

 

[PPandE]

The two stroke detroits are simply a relic from days gone by. They are very durable, parts are plentiful, hordes of mechanics around that can work on ‘em… the list of virtues goes on.

Times have changed and there are better ways. Detroits are dirty, both in the engine room and what comes out the exhaust. They are relatively efficient only within their very narrow sweet spot of the torque curve. They are big and heavy for the power output.

If I were planning to explore the far reaches of the earth, I might even prefer them. Here in the relative civilization of south Florida and the Bahamas, I love my yanmars.

None of these engines are junk. Again, condition rules.

As for thoughts on “Grey Ghost”, she looks like a well kept boat but keep in mind that tournament fishing is tough duty. The engines are new but probably not the transmissions, shifters, bearings and everything else that takes a beating. If my plan was to fish tournaments, I’d strongly consider her and also try to work a deal on the excluded fishing gear. For a family cruiser, I’d have second thoughts. She would need a dingy, davit and swim platform for starters. Not deal breakers, but considerations.

Generally the older sport fishers have interiors designed for a bunch of guys drinking and fishing while being waited on by professional crew. For example, Grey Ghost has the galley completely isolated from the salon. By contrast, even though my Silverton has the galley down, the layout doesn’t separate it from the salon, letting the cook interact with the guests. My ‘86 41Hatt had the galley up in a “great room” style layout. That boat was a bit ahead of its time in some ways. Were i in your shoes, I’d jump a cheap flight to south Florida and look at some boats.

 

[Sharked]

So we just spent the afternoon drinking & looking at listings on yachtworld, we both would point out things we like and don't like in order to narrow down our list.

I like the Hatteras the most:
These 3 were my favorites in our price range:
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/199...le-50-8744314/
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/197...tible-8255131/
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/198...tible-9172445/

Problem is aesthetically she doesn't like how the side windows don't wrap around the front

She likes the looks of this one better:
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/198...tible-9029911/

We both like the looks of this Bertham:
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/198...-fish-8919190/
However she doesn't like the tuna tower, I don't mind it, although I would probably never use it.


We looked at some Bayliners, Meridian, and older grandbanks too, however we both seem to like boats with the more sleek sport fish lines.

Is a Hatteras a much better boat then a Bertham? or is it like Coke/Pepsi?


We have not look at Viking's yet, thats on the agenda for tomorrow!

 

[psneeld]

Older Bertrams were in my opinion as good as or better than Hatteras. Especially the samples I have encountered as far as total build and especially systems/installs.

Then again many of the Hatts I've been on were neglected and bastardized through the years.

Again, only a live walk around each boat would tell the difference, but as far as solid boats, both have had great reputations.

The newer Bertrams I worked on had some real boneheaded system installs in my opinion. Early 2000s but they may have overcome those year's mistakes.

Pre 2000, 54' Bertrams were reported as tanks in a good seaway from everyone I knew (one was a charter boat behind me at my old marina and the passengers all loved her)... but that heavyness cost in fuel (less so run slow).

 

[PPandE]

Bertram made a fine boat. They were heads up competitors with hatteras and Viking was almost in their league. Generally speaking the Bertrams were a little deeper V than the Hatterasses which made them a little better in a head sea, a little more rolley in a beam sea. Later on Bertram was a little slower to embrace nicer interiors and marketing to the family instead of the husband alone. Of course, all three were so close that I’m sure there are people who would disagree with me on their relative merits.

From the ads you posted I’d have to look very closely to choose. First glance would have me favoring the ‘99Hatt as the most bang for the buck. I could be happy on any of them.

 

[ksanders]

So we just spent the afternoon drinking & looking at listings on yachtworld, we both would point out things we like and don't like in order to narrow down our list.

I like the Hatteras the most:
These 3 were my favorites in our price range:
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/199...le-50-8744314/
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/197...tible-8255131/
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/198...tible-9172445/

Problem is aesthetically she doesn't like how the side windows don't wrap around the front

She likes the looks of this one better:
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/198...tible-9029911/

We both like the looks of this Bertham:
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/198...-fish-8919190/
However she doesn't like the tuna tower, I don't mind it, although I would probably never use it.


We looked at some Bayliners, Meridian, and older grandbanks too, however we both seem to like boats with the more sleek sport fish lines.

Is a Hatteras a much better boat then a Bertham? or is it like Coke/Pepsi?


We have not look at Viking's yet, thats on the agenda for tomorrow!

Remember your intended mission was life aboard.

Lots more interior room in a cruiser/trawler than a sport fish for any given size.

Yes, you need to like the looks of a boat, but never forget that space equals liveaboard happiness.

 

[psneeld]

Remember your intended mission was life aboard.

Lots more interior room in a cruiser/trawler than a sport fish for any given size.

Yes, you need to like the looks of a boat, but never forget that space equals liveaboard happiness.

This is a round and round thought process in my book.

For any given size, some trawlers don't have the amount of outdoor living space or interior "open" living space as a convertible/sportfish. But again, it really depends on the model of either you compare to the other. The style boat you have Kevin is a bit of a blend between the two. This is where jumping up sizes matters.

I mover from a 37' convertible to a 40' trawler and while the trawler had much more carrying capacity and more "spaces" it was not only the 3 additional feet that helped that but it also was way more "cut up" with different spaces. A "Europa" style trawler may be a closer comparison or winner of that space/storage/carrying capacity issue.

The OP is planning on not living abord full time, but yes long periods. He also discussed plans as if keeping a dirt dwelling which can drastically reduce some "full time cruiser needs".

When I shopped for my second liveaboard, I wound up with a convertible because it did give me the most what I would call "living space" for a single/couple for the buck, plus it meshed with my lifestyle/boating activities better.

 

[Sharked]

Remember your intended mission was life aboard.

Lots more interior room in a cruiser/trawler than a sport fish for any given size.

Yes, you need to like the looks of a boat, but never forget that space equals liveaboard happiness.

Yes, agreed but given our location of the Bahamas, I expect we will spend most of the time on the flybridge, or cockpit

As we are both scuba divers also, the large cockpit area of the sport fish models is very appealing.

 

[BruceK]

One reason a sportfish style boat offers more interior room is because the safer walkaround decks of a trawler are incorporated into the interior, "walkaround" becomes "clingaround",using the handholds usually provided.

 

[Kit_L]

This is SUCH a good thread, and I have many more new (to me) things to think about. I will be starting my own thread soon to talk about the next boat I want. This thread has been an excellent starting point. Thanks to all who have posted.

 

[psneeld]

One reason a sportfish style boat offers more interior room is because the safer walkaround decks of a trawler are incorporated into the interior, "walkaround" becomes "clingaround",using the handholds usually provided.

While that is true, it is also true of the Bayliners, Meridians and similar styles (although some do have better access by scurrying through the boat and out the pilothouse. Also some types have difficult dock access or bow access in other ways...or they have difficulty in accessing the water for water sports...all having features that add interior space but limit walkaround.

Every boat is a compromise and there are workarounds I used on the sportfish for needing to go forward yet didn't really find workarounds for the limited access to the water versus the convenience the low to the water cockpit of a sportfish.

 

[PPandE]

That cockpit is great for coming and going off the dock too. Some of my trawler and cruiser friends struggle with all sorts of ladder, ramp or stair contraptions, especially at fixed docks with significant tide changes.

 

[ranger58sb]

- We don't like aft cabin designs where you have to climb a ladder down to the water

There are "cockpit motor yachts" that might be worth a look. You get the aft cabin, but then there's also a cockpit for access to water level.

Hatteras Yachtfish models, 53' and 58' are the oldest examples I can think of... might be worth reviewing to get an idea about whether something like that (although maybe newer, different brands, etc.) might work for you.

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

If you were in my shoes today would you lean towards an older Hatteras or a newer boat like your Silverton?

Hatt sportfishers often don't have front windshield (can't remember if that applies to their Yachtfish models) and they usually have ladders to the bridge. Older boats, usually DD 2-strokes. Maybe some 32 VDC electrical systems, depending on age.

Silverton Convertibles have mostly front windshields (although the 45 and 48/50 are only partially open) and more recent models, post circa 2001, stairs to the bridge. Cummins, Volvo, Cat, or Yanmar diesels.

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

One reason a sportfish style boat offers more interior room is because the safer walkaround decks of a trawler are incorporated into the interior, "walkaround" becomes "clingaround",using the handholds usually provided.

Varies by brand and model. Our previous and this current boat both have relatively generous side decks and we have rails all around the front and sides... don't even have to turn sideways to walk forward.

Not like a more recent high-end sportfish (Viking, Spencer, etc.) with no bow rails and skinny side decks...

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

On the sport fish types (and a lot of sedan types as well), even with decent side decks and rails, I find there's often one weak spot in safe access to the foredeck. That's in the form of the first step from the cockpit onto the side decks. It's often a slightly awkward, poorly protected step, as you're stepping up onto the side deck just aft of where the rail starts, so you only have inboard handholds for the initial step.

 

[Trawlerman]

Live aboard issues.

Regardless of what you end up doing, here is a little info to consider. We did the Great Loop in 2009/10 and spending a year on our boat and comparing life with other boats we parallel Looped with was informative. We had the luxury of two full bedrooms each with bathtub and shower, plus a V-berth with attached washroom containing a stacked washer and dryer, and a galley with full sized refrigerator. With Perkins engines (T6-354) with a rated lifetime of up to 30,000 hours (and only less than 6000 hrs on them) we never worried about their longevity, and I might add that the same applies to Ford Lehman engines. Furthermore, while our boat does have an upper helm, the boat has been designed so that the lower helm has good forward visibility, and not even that bad to the aft due to the extensive windows. As a pair of former Canucks (35 years ago) living in TN and at the ripe old age of 79, we are considering selling our shed kept boat (hint, hint but not listed) but regardless of what you end up getting, I personally strongly suggest a vessel with lots of lebensraum. As regards the difference in a trawler draft of 5 feet (with a prop protective keel) versus about 3.5 to 4 feet (with props as the lowest point) of most cruiser vessels, the risk of prop damage is likely less in the trawler. At any rate, this is some food for thought.
Ken Bloomfield
khtb@bellsouth.net