cooking, bathing and cabin heat - A lot of research - no conclusions yet

[FlyWright]

OD'43, You've got a lot packed into 34'! Hat's off to ya!!

 

[OldDan1943]

OD'43, You've got a lot packed into 34'! Hat's off to ya!!

FlyWright,
Thank you. I am almost finished with the planned 'improvements'. If I am very lucky, when I think I am 'finished', I hope it all works, before it start breaking. LOL

You have two solar panels fwd?
I was trying to 'splain to AKDave what you have accomplished with your solar panels.

 

[Jeff F]

I am wavering between the Hurricane and a Webasto system recommended by Sure marine. Pluses and minuses for each to be sure. In the end, the fact that Sure Marine is SOOOOOO highly praised, and right around the corner may win the day.

In favor of ITR, the manufacturer offers great direct support. I had a discussion with them about spare parts, and basically was talked out of carrying any with the promise of fast courier delivery anywhere and qualified support over the phone. Anecdotal evidence from other owners backs this up. They're a small operation that's committed to their product.

I bought mine from a Webasto dealer. He loves ITR but most of his customers choose Webasto.

 

[OldDan1943]

Based upon my own experience with my generator, a faulty sensors shut down my generator and had to replace one sooooo, I have opted to carry the 2 sensors for the generator and the 3 sensors for the main engine. I have a spare alternator so I guess, the next is to buy a spare starter, in the future.
Of course I do carry the usual supply of filters, impellers and belts.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Cooking, bathing and cabin heat.

Cooking by 1st mate and force 10 propane stove.
Bathing at town facilities .... varies.
Cabin heat by Wabasto forced air.

 

[FlyWright]

FlyWright,
Thank you. I am almost finished with the planned 'improvements'. If I am very lucky, when I think I am 'finished', I hope it all works, before it start breaking. LOL

You have two solar panels fwd?
I was trying to 'splain to AKDave what you have accomplished with your solar panels.

I mounted 4x100W panels on my forward rails...2 per side, each pair tilt/rotate as one panel. I'll look for some pics I recently posted...

...EDIT: found it. Sorry for the side view. Consider it pandemic neck exercise...

The strut poles were temporary trials until I graduated to the PVC prototype. Still not at the final strut support yet which will be SS rail mount.

 

[OldDan1943]

FlyWright, I have mounted mine on top of the pilot house.
You could add flexible panels to the top over the fly bridge too.

 

[FlyWright]

After watching the problems with flexible panels like Dave was having, I decided to wait it out for a little longer before taking the leap. Standoffs and cooling seem to be an issue with flex panels that I couldn't solve to my satisfaction. Also, feeding the cables from FB to ER was more challenging on FW.

Rigid panels seemed like a better fit for my boat, but I wouldn't like the look or security of that weight on the FB bimini. My new cockpit cover is rigid enough but too shaded in most anchorages.

 

[OldDan1943]

I mounted 4x100W panels on my forward rails...2 per side, each pair tilt/rotate as one panel. I'll look for some pics I recently posted...

...EDIT: found it. Sorry for the side view. Consider it pandemic neck exercise...

The strut poles were temporary trials until I graduated to the PVC prototype. Still not at the final strut support yet which will be SS rail mount.

FlyWright, I think you have solved AKDave's problem.

 

[Spinner]

Does anyone else use an Espar diesel furnace, or are they out of favor? I had Webasto diesel heaters on my two prior (much smaller) boats. No problems! The current boat came with a large Espar furnace mounted in the lazarette. It needed some new pumps, etc when I bought the boat, but has been reliable ever since. It keeps the boat really warm. I don’t like to run it when I’m sleeping, maybe that’s not rational... I keep the boat supplied with down comforters and wool blankets though. There’s just that dash to turn the heat on in the morning! The coldest weather I’ve used it in had been 9 degrees.

I try and crack open a few windows to get rid of moisture from cooking, breathing, and bathing.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Spinner,
We leave our Wabasto on while we’re up-town and all through the night.
Don’t leave it unattended for days tho.

 

[av8r]

We turn our Espar Airtronic on when we arrive at the boat and off when we leave. It might be 2 nights, it might be 2 months. Keeps the boat dry.

 

[FF]

The usual Espar hassle is operating with a thermostat , that shuts off the unit then restarts it.

Plenty of voltage during starts and diesel mixed with kerosene is a great help.

***********

OP,,,,"No conclusions yet,"

Imagine , your in Texas for the past week, then decide on heating systems..

 

[OldDan1943]

Imagine , your in Texas for the past week, then decide on heating systems..

Ah one of the many advantages of living on a boat. You can move it to warmer climes. Cant do that with a land based house.

 

[Mako]

A question for you PNW guys. If you wanted to keep a drip bulkhead heater operating continuously on lowest setting, just to keep the boat warm while away from the boat for an extended period, would fueling it with 100% kerosene be sufficient to eliminate sooting?

 

[Marco Flamingo]

The strut poles were temporary trials until I graduated to the PVC prototype. Still not at the final strut support yet which will be SS rail mount.

I wondered about your strut poles. I could put rigid 125W panels on the backside of my port/stbd FB seats (no Bimini) and use struts. The panels could be hinged at the top and when flopped down would be completely out of sight with no windage. If the strut poles were hinged to the back of the panel and were adjustable like a telescoping boat hook, I could set them at different angles as needed. Haven't yet found any off-the-shelf solution. I was hoping that you had.

I'm not even sure that I will go with solar. My recently acquired boat has a non-working 4kw Yanmar genset. I think the high pressure fuel pump is out, since I couldn't get it to squirt anything even when manually cycling it. Yanar wants $470. Then I found a Taiwan manufacturer (who may produce for Yanmar), contacted them directly using Google translate, and decided to pay their asking price ($75 plus shipping). A cheap gamble.

I'm not a fan of generators and have always been one of the most vocal critics (we are common in the PNW). Maybe I'll become like dog owners ("I don't hear any barking) or parents ("I don't hear any screaming") or bikers ("My exhaust isn't loud"). Genset? I don't hear anything.

 

[FlyWright]

I wondered about your strut poles. I could put rigid 125W panels on the backside of my port/stbd FB seats (no Bimini) and use struts. The panels could be hinged at the top and when flopped down would be completely out of sight with no windage. If the strut poles were hinged to the back of the panel and were adjustable like a telescoping boat hook, I could set them at different angles as needed. Haven't yet found any off-the-shelf solution. I was hoping that you had.

If I had mounted the rail mount at the mid-point of the panel so that it extended equally inside and outside of the rail, it would probably not need a prop rod in the benign conditions of the CA Delta.

Here are a few other pics I found to help visualize my prototype PVC struts. The "T" portion attaches to 2 adjacent panels so they move as one panel. The smaller portion slides up and down on a vertical rail to adjust angle. There is another PVC pipe section (not shown) that connects the two, serving as the strut.

 

[AKDoug]

A forced air system does use a little less power but the difference isn't dramatic (except perhaps for the Wallas). Forced air is simpler and cheaper to install for sure. You always run glycol in a hydronic system, so there is no winterization to do.

For me, the ability to use and distribute heat from the engine while running, combined with domestic hot water, tip the scales.

Humidity control does not favor one over the other, either will draw in outside air if you wish. Heating the air doesn't change the dew point, it only lowers the RH. Dehumidification lowers the dew point, the effects can be somewhat different.

Wet air warmed in the cabin is still just warmer wet air, cold air drawn in from outside and heated becomes dry (relative) warm air able to absorb large quantities of moisture from the cabin. The positive pressure of drawing outside air in pushes the warmed wetter air out. The dew temperature is the point at which the moisture falls out of the saturated air because it can't hold any more, colder air drawn in isn't saturated and once warmed can hold an amazing amount of moisture.

Humidity control does favor warming colder air drawn in from outside the cabin, and to draw in colder outside air to warm it with a hydronic system would require and additional system to pull air in from outside. Normally hydronic systems just rewarm the cabin air, not exchange it. A forced air system that drew air from inside the cabin would have the same shortcomings.

 

[Nomad Willy]

The usual Espar hassle is operating with a thermostat , that shuts off the unit then restarts it.

Plenty of voltage during starts and diesel mixed with kerosene is a great help.

***********

OP,,,,"No conclusions yet,"

Imagine , your in Texas for the past week, then decide on heating systems..

FF I run strait kerosene from a dedicated tank on the aft bulkhead.
But re the cost of kero you’ve given me an idea .. 50/50 kero and diesel.
Prolly not worth the effort tho.

 

[AKDoug]

My Webasto has it's thermal control in the intake side of the heater, so it monitors the air drawn in, not the room temperature. An external thermostat is required to set the room temperature unless you are drawing the air to be heated from the room you are warming, and if the air is saturated with moisture you just get warm wet air.

If you draw outside air in, you need to include an external sensor in your system. I think most of the forced air heaters are comparable, I just wound up with a Webasto. If there had been a service center here for Espar or Wallas I would probably have gone with one of them. I had to ship my heater to Sure in Seattle for service, a sensor had sooted up and the heater didn't reignite after shutting down with the thermostat sensor. The tech said diesel additives contributed to the soot/sensor issue.

I am unwilling to add another fuel tank to run kerosene, so it draws off behind the 1 micron fuel filter for the engine.

 

[DDW]

In favor of ITR, the manufacturer offers great direct support. I had a discussion with them about spare parts, and basically was talked out of carrying any with the promise of fast courier delivery anywhere and qualified support over the phone. Anecdotal evidence from other owners backs this up. They're a small operation that's committed to their product.

I've had long conversations with the ITR guys during the installs, they know their product and are free with their time, even when I was modifying their unit out of spec for my needs. The only issue I have had that needed parts was the control panel was DOA on arrival new, they immediately replaced it via courier.

Wet air warmed in the cabin is still just warmer wet air, cold air drawn in from outside and heated becomes dry (relative) warm air able to absorb large quantities of moisture from the cabin. The positive pressure of drawing outside air in pushes the warmed wetter air out. The dew temperature is the point at which the moisture falls out of the saturated air because it can't hold any more, colder air drawn in isn't saturated and once warmed can hold an amazing amount of moisture.

Humidity control does favor warming colder air drawn in from outside the cabin, and to draw in colder outside air to warm it with a hydronic system would require and additional system to pull air in from outside. Normally hydronic systems just rewarm the cabin air, not exchange it. A forced air system that drew air from inside the cabin would have the same shortcomings.

If your assumption is that the dew point is higher inside than outside, then drawing in outside air will lower the dew point whether you heat it or not. Heating any air will lower the RH but does not affect the dew point. Either a hydronic or hot air system can be plumbed to draw in outside air, may be a little easier with a hot air system but depends on the install, not an inherent property of one or the other. You don't need to plumb it that way in either case, just open a port and a hatch. Air will be exchanged and the new air heated with the same effect. Humid air is lighter, so it will try to exit high.

If you have outside conditions of 45 deg dew point and 50 deg air (about 90% RH), taking that air in and heating it to 70 will not change its dew point but will lower the RH to about 45% which will feel much drier. A dehumidifier will maintain the dew point and RH by removing any added moisture without having to heat new cool air constantly. Also works in a cool boat, or on a warm humid day (with the heater off) - but it is another system to install and maintain.

 

[AKDoug]

Dew point is the temperature at which the absorbed humidity falls out of the air, colder air holds less humidity, warmer air holds more. When the temperature falls the humidity the air was able to hold becomes less and moisture forms.

In forestry firefighting we calculate the temperature at which moisture becomes an aid in reducing the intensity of the fire, it is independent of the actual temperature and dependent on the amount of moisture held in the air.

It's why fog is able to form even on warm days, it's about moisture saturation at a given temperature. Reducing moisture saturation lowers the dew point, it's that simple. Raising the temperature reduces the saturation, because of increased ability to absorb moisture.

 

[Jay N]

There’s just that dash to turn the heat on in the morning! The coldest weather I’ve used it in had been 9 degrees.

Possible solution: I mounted the thermostat at the head of my bed - no dash needed!

 

[Nomad Willy]

AKDoug wrote;
“I had to ship my heater to Sure in Seattle for service, a sensor had sooted up and the heater didn't reignite after shutting down with the thermostat sensor. The tech said diesel additives contributed to the soot/sensor issue.”

I had a sooted up Wabasto too. Inoperative. Took it to Sure Marine and had it made well again (can’t remember what they did) but they suggested I burn kerosene instead on diesel saying that diesel burns too dirty.

I did and although we haven’t run it for 1000hrs as before it’s performance has been flawless since.

My intake air is mostly from belowdecks where it is drawn from outside.

 

[RCook]

Our Espar D5 forced air heater seemed kinda gummed up when we bought the boat. We soon discovered that if we run it full blast every so often it cleans itself out. It has worked flawlessly on diesel without any servicing for four years now.

 

[OldDan1943]

AKDoug,
I was a professional forester for over 20 years and thought you might appreciate a good recall of events at a ranger camp.
How many fire fighters they kept in camp depended upon fuel moister, the others could go into town for the weekend. Every day, the head ranger would dutifully weigh the fire sticks. For almost the entire fire season, the fire sticks weighed so much, the ranger did not keep many folks in camp. Yes, there were fires but on site personnel could handle it. All was well and good until the ranger caught a guy peeing on the sticks.... LOL

Sorry, I know it is off subject.... I now return you to the real subject.

 

[firehoser75]

Our Espar D5 forced air heater seemed kinda gummed up when we bought the boat. We soon discovered that if we run it full blast every so often it cleans itself out. It has worked flawlessly on diesel without any servicing for four years now.

Same as Richard.
I run our Espar D5 monthly (or more as needed) on high setting for 20 -30 minutes once per month. It is working flawlessly.

 

[Nomad Willy]

How are you guys running your heaters on “high setting”? They are full throttle anytime ther’re running. The thermostat just turns them off as needed to maintain the temp selected on the thermostat.

Or is that not so?

 

[firehoser75]

Eric,
You are probably correct. I just set the thermostat to the highest setting so that the unit will run continuously (and not shut down due to reaching the set point) for the times I mentioned. In that way, the unit gets as hot as it will, and "in theory" burns out any buildup that might be occurring.

I read this as good practise on more than one site, and it seems to make sense as well.

 

[Spinner]

My Espar furnace does run off a thermostat. I only wish it could be set to a specific temperature! It draws off the engine tanks, so no kerosene additions....