Collision and demasting

[SteveK]

Please tell me what information I have posted here that wasn't in post #1.

Far as I know the only new thing from post #1 was that my wife the other day say she "saw darkness" right before seeing a fully lit FV. I don't feel she understood (which is not unreasonable really) that darkness was probably an unlit boat that sudden saw us and turned on its' lights.

She was looking directly at where that FV came from as we were talking about the moon should have come up and she was telling me she didn't see it. I am pretty sure I now understand why.

I of course can not prove anything as it would require I had video of the whole thing, but the only thing to us no matter how many times we run it through on minds is that the FV was dark til the last moment.

Yet I have not said we were blameless even though we didn't stand a chance.

There you said again, good for you. Had you posted that in #1, no worries. Now, serves no purpose to post it as I just remembered this. JMO and I watched every episode of Perry Mason.

 

[Hippocampus]

Don there’s no question you did well as there’s so many ways it could have been even worse. Don’t the think pursuing Monday night quarterbacking is fruitful. Do think there’s something to be learned by us. So thank you for the OP.
This type of event can happen to you.
Think about what you can do to decrease the odds it will happen to you. Either with technology or modification of behavior. Maybe something as simple as going to the bow with a high candle power light and scanning forward or a good radar or avoiding common passage lanes. Each situation is different but playing the “what ifs” is sometimes worthwhile. Firmly believe coastal and nearshore has its own set of risks and they are every bit as dangerous as ocean.

Think about what you can plan for or do to decrease odds of further damage to you, crew and the boat. No question youre actions here were outstanding.

 

[BruceK]

As the thread appears to be exhausting itself, I wondered what differences if any there might have been in the OP`s experience of the event and the lead up thereto, had the OP been operating a trawler, as was once considered.


Exploring that area might be most relevant to TF members who predominantly own trawlers or similar power vessels. There is inestimable value in learning from adverse events, real world events, rather than those based in theory. Even if the negative experience is not our own.


These matters immediately come to mind, in a kind of "thinking out loud" way:


1.The elevated helm position of a trawler affords a better/higher position view point. More so if a FB helm station was being utilized. Thus objects approaching may be seen earlier.

2. The view forward is likely to be clearer and better, through clear glass rather than plastic sheeting. The view is generally broader through a windscreen than through the "dodger" into which the plastic panel(s) are sewn.Unlike glass, a plastic "window" tends to degrade with age and vision quality may degrade with it. And the trawler glass is fixed in position rather than sewn into a potentially flexible canvas type structure, except of course on the FB the view may also be via plastic sheeting set in canvas.


(Of course if an approaching vessel was "running dark" and only illuminated itself with navigation and bright working lights immediately prior to an inevitable collision no amount of observation of any quality may have detected it`s presence earlier.)

3. Most trawlers have a hardwired powered VHF at one or two helm stations so they are unlikely to be discharged. Many carry a handheld VHF for emergency or backup or for ship to dinghy/ashore communication, mine sits in a charging cradle.
4. The radar display on a trawler would likely be fitted adjacent to/immediately above the helm position and therefore in the view of the helmsperson.


5. Running engine(s) should generate enough power to operate radar without concern for power adequacy. But, when my twin Cummins 210s boat was moved professionally some 800 miles, the operators appeared to run the genset in tandem with the engines, suggesting a need for more power than engines run at 1400 rpm provided.


By corollary, there could well be factors of sailboat operation more advantageous for sailboat crew than a trawler could provide. I have sailed, but having owned trawlers for near 17 years, I`m less qualified to advance them than in the area into which I have ventured.

 

[rslifkin]

The biggest thing I can think is that in a boat where engines were already running and more power was available, my reaction to seeing something appear in front of me might be different. Under sail, the only choice is to turn. Under power, depending on distance to collision it might be next to turn and add a bunch of throttle. Or if it's really close (not enough time to turn and get clear), go for a handful of reverse to try to minimize the impact speed and possibly back away from the situation.

 

[BruceK]

The biggest thing I can think is that in a boat where engines were already running and more power was available, my reaction to seeing something appear in front of me might be different. Under sail, the only choice is to turn. Under power, depending on distance to collision it might be next to turn and add a bunch of throttle. Or if it's really close (not enough time to turn and get clear), go for a handful of reverse to try to minimize the impact speed and possibly back away from the situation.

Good point. A trawler/powerboat under engine power is likely way better able to take avoiding action(though interestingly it doesn`t seemed to have helped the fishing boat any, raising the question "were they looking?". Tacking or gybing a sailboat to change direction is much more of a process.

 

[Hippocampus]

Good point. A trawler/powerboat under engine power is likely way better able to take avoiding action(though interestingly it doesn`t seemed to have helped the fishing boat any, raising the question "were they looking?". Tacking or gybing a sailboat to change direction is much more of a process.

Not so sure about this. High aspect fin keeled sailboats with big balanced spade rudders pivot on their keels and turn, even at slow speeds, very rapidly. Comparing my NT to my prior outbound the NT reacts to the helm slower and has a larger turning radius. Comparing the NT to prior full keeled sailboats or low aspect fin keeled sailboats the NT turns quicker and is more responsive. Think the NT is at least average and probably above average in handling characteristics as it has a generous rudder well placed in relation to the prop. Also sailboats like motorboats follow Newton’s laws and have significant inertia. Here a few feet would seem all that was necessary for no collision to have occurred. Even with the rags up and the sheets untouched I would wonder if just spinning the wheel would have been sufficient.

I don’t like the FB except on clear comfortable days or when docking. When making tracks we’re usually in the PH. It’s just more comfortable. That PH is one of the great improvements in going from sail to power. In the pilot house I have the MFD screens up and different chart source up on the IPad in a perfect position to see with a glance. I’m comfortable so lower stress and it’s easier to be diligent about watch standing. I agree with prior posters it’s here that radar might have been very helpful.

A side discussion. How do you display radar and AIS? Wife likes it as an overlay. I prefer a separate screen or if necessary a split screen. If just one screen is available will flip back and forth from overlay to dedicated screen/split screen. But I like having radar running all the time. Current radars draw so little power don’t see any reason to not have it on. I have less trouble interpreting returns on a just radar/AIS screen. Is this because I fart dust and was first introduced to radar on a separate device? What is your practice and why?

As regards “were they looking?” Think this is an excellent point. Especially for fish boat leaving a well known port doing a well known run. Not unreasonable to wonder if they were on AP and getting ready to fish. But no way to know that. Believe the takeaway is sure use the VHF if you have time but don’t be surprised if there’s no response. Rather assume they’re on AP and not playing attention. Change course and/or speed early so there’s no reason to even have to call.

 

[O C Diver]

As the thread appears to be exhausting itself, I wondered what differences if any there might have been in the OP`s experience of the event and the lead up thereto, had the OP been operating a trawler, as was once considered.


Exploring that area might be most relevant to TF members who predominantly own trawlers or similar power vessels. There is inestimable value in learning from adverse events, real world events, rather than those based in theory. Even if the negative experience is not our own.


These matters immediately come to mind, in a kind of "thinking out loud" way:


1.The elevated helm position of a trawler affords a better/higher position view point. More so if a FB helm station was being utilized. Thus objects approaching may be seen earlier.

2. The view forward is likely to be clearer and better, through clear glass rather than plastic sheeting. The view is generally broader through a windscreen than through the "dodger" into which the plastic panel(s) are sewn.Unlike glass, a plastic "window" tends to degrade with age and vision quality may degrade with it. And the trawler glass is fixed in position rather than sewn into a potentially flexible canvas type structure, except of course on the FB the view may also be via plastic sheeting set in canvas.


(Of course if an approaching vessel was "running dark" and only illuminated itself with navigation and bright working lights immediately prior to an inevitable collision no amount of observation of any quality may have detected it`s presence earlier.)

3. Most trawlers have a hardwired powered VHF at one or two helm stations so they are unlikely to be discharged. Many carry a handheld VHF for emergency or backup or for ship to dinghy/ashore communication, mine sits in a charging cradle.
4. The radar display on a trawler would likely be fitted adjacent to/immediately above the helm position and therefore in the view of the helmsperson.


5. Running engine(s) should generate enough power to operate radar without concern for power adequacy. But, when my twin Cummins 210s boat was moved professionally some 800 miles, the operators appeared to run the genset in tandem with the engines, suggesting a need for more power than engines run at 1400 rpm provided.


By corollary, there could well be factors of sailboat operation more advantageous for sailboat crew than a trawler could provide. I have sailed, but having owned trawlers for near 17 years, I`m less qualified to advance them than in the area into which I have ventured.

All good points. Add AIS, the ability to leave inside lights on for being seen, and a larger profile above the water to be seen by others and radar to reflect off of.

Ted

 

[Hippocampus]

Add AIS, the ability to leave inside lights on for being seen, and a larger profile above the water to be seen by others and radar to reflect off of.-Ted

All true if you have a raised PH where house lights don’t kill night vision for the operator and the other vessel is paying attention. But think the default position maybe better if you assume the other vessel is unaware of your presence.

From what I gather if the OP missed the fish boat by ~20’ no harm no foul. It’s not like needing to stay 1/4nm from a 1000’ ship at steaming speed. This was an accident and near collision. A course correction by either vessel would have avoided it. No mention is made of limited ability due to draft or obstacles. Deciding fault is conjecture at best. But yes it’s very worthwhile to discuss what you can do to limit your risk of a similar event.
Maybe
Don’t travel in conditions of limited vision (night, fog, heavy rain etc.) without benefit of radar.
Have two people up in conditions of limited visibility.
Decrease speed.

 

[rslifkin]

Not so sure about this. High aspect fin keeled sailboats with big balanced spade rudders pivot on their keels and turn, even at slow speeds, very rapidly. Comparing my NT to my prior outbound the NT reacts to the helm slower and has a larger turning radius. Comparing the NT to prior full keeled sailboats or low aspect fin keeled sailboats the NT turns quicker and is more responsive. Think the NT is at least average and probably above average in handling characteristics as it has a generous rudder well placed in relation to the prop. Also sailboats like motorboats follow Newton’s laws and have significant inertia. Here a few feet would seem all that was necessary for no collision to have occurred. Even with the rags up and the sheets untouched I would wonder if just spinning the wheel would have been sufficient.

With the booms out on the fishing boat, rate of turn isn't the only factor. Most sailboats do that plenty quickly. The issue is also how quickly you can cover a boatlength or 2 after the turn to get clear of the booms, etc. if the situation is really close. The sailboat will still have inertia, but after a 90° turn you'll generally be losing speed if you haven't had a chance to re-trim the sails. With a powerboat, you can add throttle and (depending on the boat) at least maintain your speed if not increase it. That might mean needing 1 or 2 less seconds to get clear.

 

[mvweebles]

As the thread appears to be exhausting itself, I wondered what differences if any there might have been in the OP`s experience of the event and the lead up thereto, had the OP been operating a trawler, as was once considered.


Exploring that area might be most relevant to TF members who predominantly own trawlers or similar power vessels. There is inestimable value in learning from adverse events, real world events, rather than those based in theory. Even if the negative experience is not our own.


These matters immediately come to mind, in a kind of "thinking out loud" way:


1.The elevated helm position of a trawler affords a better/higher position view point. More so if a FB helm station was being utilized. Thus objects approaching may be seen earlier.

2. The view forward is likely to be clearer and better, through clear glass rather than plastic sheeting. The view is generally broader through a windscreen than through the "dodger" into which the plastic panel(s) are sewn.Unlike glass, a plastic "window" tends to degrade with age and vision quality may degrade with it. And the trawler glass is fixed in position rather than sewn into a potentially flexible canvas type structure, except of course on the FB the view may also be via plastic sheeting set in canvas.


(Of course if an approaching vessel was "running dark" and only illuminated itself with navigation and bright working lights immediately prior to an inevitable collision no amount of observation of any quality may have detected it`s presence earlier.)

3. Most trawlers have a hardwired powered VHF at one or two helm stations so they are unlikely to be discharged. Many carry a handheld VHF for emergency or backup or for ship to dinghy/ashore communication, mine sits in a charging cradle.
4. The radar display on a trawler would likely be fitted adjacent to/immediately above the helm position and therefore in the view of the helmsperson.


5. Running engine(s) should generate enough power to operate radar without concern for power adequacy. But, when my twin Cummins 210s boat was moved professionally some 800 miles, the operators appeared to run the genset in tandem with the engines, suggesting a need for more power than engines run at 1400 rpm provided.


By corollary, there could well be factors of sailboat operation more advantageous for sailboat crew than a trawler could provide. I have sailed, but having owned trawlers for near 17 years, I`m less qualified to advance them than in the area into which I have ventured.

General consensus by vocal sailor brethren on CruisersForum is that standing a visual horizon watch using almost exclusively visual means is the best means for collision avoidance (well, maybe not all on CF, but certainly a vocal subset of crotchety contributors). From what I can tell, using those same eyes to scan instruments vs the horizon is not encouraged. Certainly standing a watch from a comfortable place such as a Stidd chair is inadequate compared to huddled behind a dodger in an exposed cockpit with obstructed view forward. This of course contributes to the general sense that powerboat operators are a less evolved lifeform. There is never a discussion about fog etc.

To some, were just knuckle-dragggers.

Peter

 

[Don L]

As the thread appears to be exhausting itself, I wondered what differences if any there might have been in the OP`s experience of the event and the lead up thereto, had the OP been operating a trawler, as was once considered.

As the OP I will play in this question as long as I don't get crapped on. Note I only lightly scanned the posts after the above to post 220.

So IMO this these are differences:

- Cold was a factor as my wife was sitting under the dodger and away from the helm to be out of the wind. Plus she was wearing her harness and clipped on a tether that was sized to not be long enough to fall overboard and was not long enough to reach the helm. I assume on a trawler she would be at a helm station so could have had a chance to react faster (we are talking 5-10 seconds).

- Being at the helm she would have been looking at the chartplotter etc. on and off. Even though ours was set on reduced brightness, it definitely would have affected her night vision. Probably didn't make difference here, but if we assume the FV was in fact running dark it definitely would factor it.

- Of course power on a trawler underway is of no issue, so if the radar worked I assume it would be on. This should have prevented a collision. BUT note the FV said they had their radar on and it surely should have seen our boat!!

- We were under sail and the collision occurred on the side that the sail was. That is why at one time we said maybe that is why we didn't see the FV. We really had a hard time believing that at the time and now with more time to consider just don't believe it at all.

- I don't think turning ability comes into play. I was on a reach and my boat at 4 knots would have crash turned to stbd away from the FV quicky and traveled a fair distance away before stalling out in the wind. But it is hard to say if we had been able to turn as soon as we saw the FV that we would have made it as that was just such a small amount of time. Note that I could have only turned about 45 degrees before I would have back sailed back toward the path of the FV. A trawler could have turned 90 degrees at continued speed and that would have been the best course to take.

-A trawler of course would not have ended up stalled in the water with a mast and sails in the water.

- Everything from about 8 feet above the water surface would have been ripped off the boat. If someone was in the FB they most surely would have been very bad hurt. I also believe if someone had been in the cabin helm they also would have been badly hurt when the FB and cabin top crashed down on them.

After that I don't believe (because I am not a trawler) that after the collision a trawler could have motored back to port. If the FB is ripped away how does that effect its' steering? I don't know and by that time you either have survived or not.

 

[psneeld]

Less evolved? Who ever thinks that who tolerates the elements, swears on ancient tech and seemingly claims to have better sea sense when just as many have just as many "incidents" is more evolved....sounds like a lot of misguided individuals these days.

Another big factor, if anyone thinks using eyeballs compared to good 7X50 binocs to scan the horizon regularly at nigh needs to go back to sailing dinghies or rowing rowboats. Granted eyeballs are still part of the team, but I haven't seen a cheap way of seeing better at nigh than good binocs.

The longer this thread keeps going I am amazed at the conclusions some people keep posting as fact...or at least the probable...without (I feel confident in saying) the experience with a LOT of damage cause incidents.

 

[Davil1]

General consensus by vocal sailor brethren on CruisersForum is that standing a visual horizon watch using almost exclusively visual means is the best means for collision avoidance (well, maybe not all on CF, but certainly a vocal subset of crotchety contributors). From what I can tell, using those same eyes to scan instruments vs the horizon is not encouraged. Certainly standing a watch from a comfortable place such as a Stidd chair is inadequate compared to huddled behind a dodger in an exposed cockpit with obstructed view forward. This of course contributes to the general sense that powerboat operators are a less evolved lifeform. There is never a discussion about fog etc.

To some, were just knuckle-dragggers.
Peter

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Admit today's freezing morning discouraged going to work in my boat.

Have to Google those terms, thanks, every day I learn something reading posts in both forums.

Bold the comment on same eyes .....

Over the years have experienced increase in traffic both commercial and pleasure boats on the East coast.

Coastal cruising/passages (closer than 10 miles off the coast) I consider now high risk that in my opinion requires 2 set of eyes in reduced visibility either fog or night.

What tools to use from visual only to adds to navigation including radar/AIS has been discussed.

 

[Don L]

The longer this thread keeps going I am amazed at the conclusions some people keep posting as fact...or at least the probable...without (I feel confident in saying) the experience with a LOT of damage cause incidents.

The longer it goes the more amazed I am at your continued holier than thou crap. And I am not alone as I have gotten PMs.

 

[Hippocampus]

Lots to digest.
Yes it’s hard to keep watch when cold and/or wet when outside. Would often stand watch in an immersion work suit to stay warm and dry but I wear glasses so vision could be effected. Had several microfiber wipes to clear them in a dry pocket. Been there done that have the T-shirt.
You may actually do a better job under the dodger and not shivering. We spec’d clear glass on our hard dodger but our builder was dead set against it. We write the checks so won.

Yes the motor boat will maintain speed and can even accelerate. A definite plus for power and a possible reason for sail to think about bare poles with the engine on. That would also improve the 360 visual scan. With light turbo’d engines being around for decades think there’s few sail who can’t do hull speed under power so they can accelerate to some degree. But agree +1 for power.

I love boats. All boats and always have. But think there’s a percentage of both sail and power operators who just don’t get it. Same with land vehicles. Way it is so suck it up and act accordingly. Think we develop bias. PWC operators are brain dead. Sportfish operators just don’t care about you. Sailors are arrogant and do what they want. There are great people and not so much in all these groups. You just don’t know from looking at them. Think bias is unproductive.

As regards that visual scan think it’s easier on sail. It’s harder to look behind you from many pilot houses. Direct vision not through glass nor plastic often is less obscured and has less glare or reflections from instruments. It’s easier to keep your night vision standing at a sailboat wheel with the MFD near waist level and turned to night. Even with excellent windshield wipers occasionally will step out of the pilot house for a look see. But when just pooping along trying to get through a watch think the watch is easier on power and it’s easier to pay excellent attention to all inputs including your screens. However think you do see more when outside. Always amazed how much more you see on a motorcycle than in a car. Even a convertible. Just my opinion but there many sail/power here so wonder if they agree with this paragraph.

PS so you have this experience. Can you offer concrete advice to improve our safety? What should we be doing? The OP seems a very reasonable guy and a notch above. How would you change his watch standing protocols?

 

[psneeld]

The longer it goes the more amazed I am at your continued holier than thou crap. And I am not alone as I have gotten PMs.

Good. I love being called things...you may be surprised at te PMs I get....so big FD.

All I have tried to do is point out things I know I have a lot of experience in from all the points of view I have experienced through the years with the different hats I have worn. They may explain why or why not a "guess' from someone may not really be adequate to explain a specific situation.

You think your calls on this topic are impartial or absolutely error free?

I know you admitted partial fault and that's not what I am pointing out. Maybe I am doing a poor job of it, but I am just trying to focus on assumptions (made by anyone) that may or may not be true made about things still unproven.

I know a lot of commercial fishermen and boaters where some are great seamen, and some are lousy seamen...so I really don't take sides until the final determinations are made...till then I have no clue to who is right or wrong about anything.

You just have a hard time believing that someone that's not always on your side is on the other's.

 

[Davil1]

Lots to digest

PS so you have this experience. Can you offer concrete advice to improve our safety? What should we be doing? The OP seems a very reasonable guy and a notch above. How would you change his watch standing protocols?

====================================

excellent question/point

As noted in my recent post.
My experience tells me about the increased traffic density in the East coast.

Have sailed solo or short crew most of my “illustrious career”

No More!!!

Now consider a MUST to have two sets of eyes on watch when reduced visibility such as night/fog
no more taking breaks down in the cabin,
one person is busy enough steering, even using autopilot and monitoring all the navigational aids available, the second person is able to both keep eyes on surroundings and double-checking the helmsman.

Too much?
Maybe, just want to insure I return to port with most of my sailboat intact and hopefully the same number of people as when it departed.

My comfort level for coastal passages?
between no less than 10 miles to no more than 20.

Reasons?

As a sailing vessel, need the safety of “SEA ROOM”
When things (mechanical and others) go wrong, need not worry about bumping into coastal hazards.

My 10 miles minimum helps to declutter the “small fish” kind of boats, like recreational fishing small power boats.

My narrow alley 10 to 20 miles allows me to concentrate on the commercial fishing vessels that are more likely the higher risk to my health.

But again, this is just me, other boaters have different ideas.

 

[hollywood8118]

First off, I feel for Don and the loss he/they incurred in this incident.

There were obviously many factors that appear to be major causes to the collision, from both vessels. The two biggest are in my eyes not moving around in the cockpit to see behind the jib and the lack of a functioning radar. If you have number two above , doing number one was imperative. We NEVER ran at night in the years we cruised across the Pacific without the radar running.. and this was a sailboat in the early 1990's. Yes it used power but it was worth every amp hour used. It kept us from getting entangled in long floating nets numerous times and what could have been a few collisions. Don appears to have done a great job clearing the deck and saving his boat and luckily they weren't seriously hurt. Reading his " curt" replies to some of the posts here may be the way he communicates and if he replied to the fishing boat that way ( in the heat of the moment) may be the reason the fishing boat said screw this were out of here. I think the one thing we can all take from this is to have all means possible to navigate and use them all the time.
Hollywood

 

[psneeld]

Lots to digest.............

PS so you have this experience. Can you offer concrete advice to improve our safety? What should we be doing? The OP seems a very reasonable guy and a notch above. How would you change his watch standing protocols?

Lots of great advice so far. throughout the thread..... I tried to weed out explanations that really can't be proven/shown one way or the other.

My biggest "suggestion" so far that I didn't see mentioned is good binocs. They are the poor man's version of night vision/FLIR.... seeing better in the dark where other electronics may not show or be attention getters at the wrong time.

Other than that any tool is good if it isn't a distraction.

As far as not seeing the boat... I have no idea whether it was lit or not or even how it was IF it was. So it is always going to be hard to avoid something that you can't see. The remedy I mentioned above and really was mentioned by others many times... tools that help you see/detect are important...but not always the only/best/guaranteed answer...so use them wisely. Have seen all my life first hand and through thousands of accident reports that not everyone perceives the world around us the same way. Some can multi-task better than others. Some can be more alert when they are feeling complacent. Some have better reaction than others. And on and on. Those differences are often the difference in a near miss and an incident. Then sometimes the convergence of outside things can get the better of us.

That's why trained accident investigators are used to uncover the facts or reasonably expert guesses in incident versus juries and forums.

 

[DDW]

However think you do see more when outside. Always amazed how much more you see on a motorcycle than in a car. Even a convertible. Just my opinion but there many sail/power here so wonder if they agree with this paragraph.

I've many more miles in a sailboat than a trawler, but a good number in each and currently own both. I completely agree - you see more on a bicycle than a motorcycle (no helmet), more on a motorcycle than a convertible, more in a convertible than a sedan. The difference in each step is quite significant.

On a sailboat with a dodger, the clarity through the Eisenglass compared to real glass may be poorer or not, depends a lot on reflections, water droplets, and other things. But from behind the dodger one only needs to stand up and look over it to have an unobstructed view in any direction. When sailing, you can also hear boats approaching. I see a lot of powerboats being driven from inside the PH, with all the inside lights on. I'm pretty sure their view out isn't very good and their night vision must be awful.

Radar would very likely have picked up the FV, in that it was large and the sea benign. With a smaller FV and more seaway, radar is not a sure thing. A lot of opinions here than you can twiddle the settings and pick up small vessels, but that is a little misleading: I found than in broad daylight I could twiddle the setting to pick up most anything - knowing that it was there. However the settings - especially with sea or rain clutter - were very tweaky and not obvious to separate clutter from real targets, when the presence of real targets and/or their position was in doubt. There have been many scholarly tests of this, often following a fatal collision with a small boat, which support the idea that radar is not reliable for collision avoidance. And that radar reflectors of the kind usually hung on a sailboat are very often useless and sometimes worse. A radar watch never hurts - but it may not add much either and is no substitute for looking. I will be replacing my radome on the sailboat shortly for the more recent solid state version which uses half the power (also instant on). The power draw of the old one is not tolerable for continuous running at night. It has a mode which powers up periodically and does a few scans then shuts down, but I found that not reliable for marginal targets.

The idea that the FV may not have been looking is quite plausible to me. I have on several occasions nearly been run down when sailing by large fishing vessels steaming along on autopilot. I've had to alter course to keep from being hit, the PH was clearly visible and empty as they went close by.

 

[marcs]

Radar would very likely have picked up the FV, in that it was large and the sea benign. With a smaller FV and more seaway, radar is not a sure thing. A lot of opinions here than you can twiddle the settings and pick up small vessels, but that is a little misleading: I found than in broad daylight I could twiddle the setting to pick up most anything - knowing that it was there. However the settings - especially with sea or rain clutter - were very tweaky and not obvious to separate clutter from real targets, when the presence of real targets and/or their position was in doubt. There have been many scholarly tests of this, often following a fatal collision with a small boat, which support the idea that radar is not reliable for collision avoidance.

I don't want to harp on radar too much in this thread, or imply shelling out a lot of dollars for the latest gadget is necessary, but this is exactly my experience with my old Furuno 1942 with 3.5' open array as described earlier in the thread.

With my upgraded Furuno DRS12ANXT that has all changed, especially the doppler feature. Targets instantly show up as red if moving towards you, no acquisition or multiple scans to start tracking necessary.

It isn't magic and needs some interpretation, eg. breaking waves will show up as red if breaking towards you (sometimes very handy!), but makes it much harder to miss a target with a risk of collision and it is a valuable aid at an immediate glance even if you haven't been diligently watching the radar. The more traffic the bigger the difference. The less experienced the operator, the bigger the difference.

In moderate seas I picked up a couple of fiberglass kayaks 2 or 3 nm out, at a distance that it was still challenging to get a visual with stabilized binoculars. The new radar is much smarter dealing with intermittent returns.

From their marketing:

NXT was the first Radar in the world to use the new Furuno exclusive Target Analyzer™ function, where targets that are approaching your vessel automatically change color. Green targets are targets that stay stationary, or are moving away from you, while red targets are moving towards your vessel. Target Analyzer™ works independent of vessel speed, both your own vessels and target vessels, with minor limitations. Echoes dynamically change colors as targets approach, or get farther away from your vessel. Target Analyzer™ can increase safety, as well as improve situational awareness.

Other manufacturers have doppler features, but in my research last year Furuno was a stand out.

If considering a radar upgrade, or even if you are just curious, find a way to get out on the water on a boat with a newer solid state radar and see what you think. Some boat shows offer the opportunity.

Happy to chip in further on a separate thread if anyone is interested.

 

[sunchaser]

A question that popped into my mind - does the FV have AIS?

 

[psneeld]

If the F/V was greater than 65' then I believe they are required to have it. Not sure if shrimpers carry VMS (vessel monitoring system)

 

[Don L]

PS so you have this experience. Can you offer concrete advice to improve our safety? What should we be doing? The OP seems a very reasonable guy and a notch above. How would you change his watch standing protocols?

I would not change our watch standing protocols at at all from this collision. We don't stand set watches and our protocols has always been when one of us can sleep, they sleep. This is how we try to ensure that at least 1 of us are rested.

In this case my wife had just come up from a 4 hour nap. I had been on watch basically all day. As I posted I had been behind the helm and all around the cockpit for hours. I was on watch as sun set and had been visually tracking every set of lights there was out there. My turnover included that no one was around us that I could see.

There was delay getting to the helm because we were following our protocol of being harnessed and tethered in at night. To not allow going over the side the tether my wife as on did not allow fully reaching the helm. But I could have had my handheld autopilot controller connected and it would have been right where she was sitting. I have only used that controller once in 13 years and till just now forget it is even on the boat.

There just really isn't much you can do/change if you can not/do not see a boat on collision course with you.

And I want to say this. I was there! I have reported the events I feel exactly as they were and the CG has the same exact thing I posted at the start. I have not tried to say I have no blame even though I fully believe that FV was running dark. I am tired of posts suggesting stupid things like I am hiding something or wrong. My wife was pretty much watching full time and posters playing some math game of boats closing in 20 minutes is just BS to us. I bet at no time was there even a 5 minute time frame that there was not a visual taken. I don't care how some of you think I sound on this thread. If the FV misunderstood and thought I told them to leave (what a freaking stupid thing to believe) they could have called on the VHF as the handheld was up and working way before they left. Instead of talking about our watch standing how about discussing how a FV with crew, maintaining a visual watch along with radar watch could not avoid a 41' sailboat to prevent a collision!

 

[psneeld]

We may be stupid as you say..... we weren't involved in the collision...and you wonder why people post what they do.

IF..... they were fishing and stand on till the last second....they were about as good as you at avoiding the collision.

 

[DDW]

With my upgraded Furuno DRS12ANXT that has all changed, especially the doppler feature. Targets instantly show up as red if moving towards you, no acquisition or multiple scans to start tracking necessary.

My Raymarine 24Q radome on the trawler does that as well, also performs generally better than the prior generation (on the sailboat). But small sailboats are generally limited to an 18" closed radome, the Furuno you reference is a large and power hungry open array. It will have a lot better target discrimination than an 18". It has 100W power consumption vs. 17W for the 24Q so even if you could mount it somewhere, you couldn't power it for long (on a sailboat).

Still on radar, but closer to the OP topic. One way to help visibility of a sailboat to other people's radar is a transponder. I have one at the masthead, it acts like a RACON, when it receives a radar pulse it responds by actively transmitting a strong return signal, far stronger than a reflected return. This raises the radar profile of your sailboat to about the same as a small freighter. In addition, it has an output indicating any ping, warning you that you are within someone's radar range, so even if they aren't watching, you can be. The downside of that ability is that your own radar will trigger it. When inshore, that warning is lit all the time with lots of traffic and useless, but offshore it can be a pretty good warning of any traffic (using radar) above the horizon.

 

[Hippocampus]

Can appreciate your frustration. I’d be upset if my integrity was questioned.

Still over the years captains, friends and crew have offered suggestions and some I thought were worthwhile so changed how we do things.

White lights off at night. No lights in the pilot house and only the red floor lights down below.

Go outside for a visual scan. Depending on circumstances anywhere from 5 to 15 m apart if in the pilot house or above the dodger if on sail. Find with a slow 360 you can not uncommonly see unlit things. Rods will pick up stuff with that slow turn and then you can use radar or more looking to determine if it’s something to worry about.

Radar is your friend as is AIS. If you’re commonly out at night think about getting a transceiver and a radar.

Can’t figure a return. Go outside and look. Good binocs may help.

Avoid travel lanes unless draft restricted. Stay away from shipping lanes if at all possible.

We have 7 possible berths. >95% we’re mom and pop. Off watch sleeps on the pilot house settee and is waked with any question or concern. Routinely both are up in high risk settings. Do 6h watches during the day and 3s at night on long trips if it’s just us two.literature clearly supports this behavior allows adequate sleep. The siesta (one short no more than a couple of hour sleep and one long sleep) has been validated in the medical sleep literature as not impairing function.

Stay active on watch. Both physically and mentally. Find being alone in the dark and quiet with nothing going on can make you inattentive. It can get boring. We don’t allow earbuds when on watch. Both music and audiobooks can distract you. So stand periodically. Log. Change screens or change magnification back and forth. Go outside. MOVE.

Been yelled at when crew for being huddled under the dodger reading. Would stand periodically and do my 360 but skip said inadequate. Ok offshore but not coastal. Also yelled at for dancing in place with the earbuds in. Come to think that’s right I do better when not multitasking and so do most of us. Problem is you get complacent and bored on watch so keeping yourself occupied really helps.

What do you do?

 

[marcs]

My Raymarine 24Q radome on the trawler does that as well, also performs generally better than the prior generation (on the sailboat). But small sailboats are generally limited to an 18" closed radome, the Furuno you reference is a large and power hungry open array. It will have a lot better target discrimination than an 18". It has 100W power consumption vs. 17W for the 24Q so even if you could mount it somewhere, you couldn't power it for long (on a sailboat).

True, good point. Although the instant on and doppler tracking makes it more practical to power it on periodically if needed. The 24" DRS4DNXT and 19" DRS2DNXT have almost the same feature set, with worse range and discrimination. I don't mean to imply my specific choice is appropriate or better or worse than your Raymarine, it is just all I have to compare. I have run into a lot of folks who don't realize how far radar has come in the past 5 or 10 years.

Still on radar, but closer to the OP topic. One way to help visibility of a sailboat to other people's radar is a transponder. I have one at the masthead, it acts like a RACON, when it receives a radar pulse it responds by actively transmitting a strong return signal, far stronger than a reflected return. This raises the radar profile of your sailboat to about the same as a small freighter. In addition, it has an output indicating any ping, warning you that you are within someone's radar range, so even if they aren't watching, you can be. The downside of that ability is that your own radar will trigger it. When inshore, that warning is lit all the time with lots of traffic and useless, but offshore it can be a pretty good warning of any traffic (using radar) above the horizon.

That does sound useful.

One catch here is that solid state radars don't play super well with RACON. From the Furuno specs:

Compared with magnetron type Radar, the detection range of SART and RACON is shorter with Solid-State types due to less output power. Note that the actual detection range may be shorter or the frequency of detection may be less at the location where many vessels are transmitting Radar.

DRS2D-NXT: 0.5 to less than 1 NM
DRS4D-NXT and DRS6A-NXT: 0.5 to 1 NM (approx.)
DRS12A-NXT and DRS25A-NXT: 0.5 to 2 NM (approx.)

 

[psneeld]

I don't think anyone's integrity is being challenged...any accident investigator (and maybe people in general) knows every participant and witness is never 100 percent in recalling every detail accurately in incidents. It's not that they are lying or misleading or anything....it is usually shown that things go unseen, unmeasured (time especially), only partially observed.... and so on.

We only have half the story so possibly less than half the details even if you totally discount the F/V's story.

So no, despite being called names such as holier than thou and freakin stupid...and I can live with those because I know I am not assigning blame or taking sides.... but I am questioning actions to see perspective and not allowing speculators to generate concepts that have either explainable alternatives or possible different causes/outcomes.

Again ....I can see why some may not see my posts that way, but that is the way they are meant and I have a long history here on TF of saying that way too many time people jump to conclusions on incidents that get reported.

 

[Davil1]

=================================

posting this as a question for psneeld
based on his experience regarding claims and incidents.

I have been sailing the East coast for the last 24 years after I moved from Morro Bay CA, do not recall problems with commercial fishing boats until reaching “south of the border” and them mostly pangas.

During all these years have heard about commercial fishing boats with no lights or AIS to avoid letting other F/V letting them know etc.

I have never seen a "dark vessel", well by definition wouldn't know if I didn't see a hidden vessel.

QUESTION

how frequent is this behavior?

Is there any data, compiled
records kept, is this an issue CG or/other agencies are concerned?

Obviously, running a commercial vessel without navigational lights is a serious offense.

thanks