Cockpit Winches

[Sababa]

One consequence of upsizing to our Maritimo 52 has been that we are more often on the wall going through the Ballard Locks. When locking up, I often find my stern getting kicked out beyond my ability to muscle the lines. If someone is rafted on to us, I have sometimes asked a neighbor to come over and help. I've also used the thrusters at the cockpit helm station to push the stern in and create some slack to snug in. But it's awkward and chaotic either way.

To improve the situation, I was thinking about adding a couple of sailboat winches to the cockpit to get some mechanical advantage. I expect they also could be useful for stern anchoring, which we do a lot of in the summer. I'm not really familiar with the different options, though. Any thoughts on whether it is worth the trouble to go electric or if mechanical will do just fine? Regular vs. self-tailing? I have an Ultra stern tie reel. Will they work with the webbing line?

 

[rslifkin]

I'd personally want self tailers. You don't have to use them, but having the option will make your use of the winches more flexible. Powered vs manual is mostly a matter of preference. Powered is convenient, but more complex and also easier to damage something with if you're not careful.

 

[ABfish]

If you go with winches, please post pictures. I'm interested in a similar setup on my Maritimo.

Do you have a remote for your thrusters? That's a handy gadget for adjusting lines, bow or stern.

 

[Sababa]

I do have a remote for the thrusters. Still awkward to use while tending the lines. I'm considering these despite the price for durability and corrosion resistance given the location.

Not sure about sizing though. Will consult with the guys at Fisheries and report what they say.

 

[AlanT]

Former sailor with experience of both manual and electric powered self-tailing winches. I would say that for your docking needs manual will be perfectly adequate, probably two speed and definitely self-tailing. Without self-tailing you need two hands on your winch at all times - one to crank and one to tail. With self-tailing you can crank the winch and still have a hand free. I can't think of a disadvantage of self tailing. If you really intend to use it for stern tieing also then you would want to go two or even three speed and electric activation starts to have some advantages if you are picking up a lot of line which I equate to reeling in a Genoa from a broad reach. We had two speed electric winches on our last Hylas and really appreciated them.

 

[Sababa]

Former sailor with experience of both manual and electric powered self-tailing winches. I would say that for your docking needs manual will be perfectly adequate, probably two speed and definitely self-tailing. Without self-tailing you need two hands on your winch at all times - one to crank and one to tail. With self-tailing you can crank the winch and still have a hand free. I can't think of a disadvantage of self tailing. If you really intend to use it for stern tieing also then you would want to go two or even three speed and electric activation starts to have some advantages if you are picking up a lot of line which I equate to reeling in a Genoa from a broad reach. We had two speed electric winches on our last Hylas and really appreciated them.

Thanks. For stern tying I probably could get by with single speed, since I really wouldn't be using the winch except in place of sweating the line taught after I have hauled most of it in. But I can see how two or more speeds would be useful for stern anchoring, with the caveat that I have as yet never had occasion to do it except as an exercise during a challenge certification.

Do you know if a self-tailing winch would work with the webbing line of my Ultra stern reel, or does it need a standard round line to bite down on?

 

[rslifkin]

I can't imagine the self tailing feature working with flat webbing. Using that on any kind of winch may be a challenge, but it's likely possible if you don't try to use the self tailer for that purpose.

 

[AlanT]

Unfortunately it would not work with a webbing line. The self-tailing mechanism is a effectively a clutch with a top and bottom plate that are sprung loaded. The line is wrapped around and as the line is pulled tight it compresses the spring, opening the plates to accommodate the line where it engages with friction ridges on the surfaces of the plates. The plates in their resting position would never close sufficiently to grab an Ultra stern reel webbing line.

 

[Gdavid]

I would consider adding a fairlead of some sort to ensure the working line is always angling down and away from the winch to prevent overrides. I would imagine the cockpit of a 52' is pretty high and rafting or docking would not be a concern but for locking, make sure you have some provision to prevent deckhands from creating a mess of an override.

 

[AlanT]

I can't imagine the self tailing feature working with flat webbing. Using that on any kind of winch may be a challenge, but it's likely possible if you don't try to use the self tailer for that purpose.

Agree, it could be possible on a non self tailer, although the likelihood of getting a wrap (a tangle) is high and the thought of tailing a 100' or so of webbing is more than I would want to take on!

 

[rslifkin]

Agree, it could be possible on a non self tailer, although the likelihood of getting a wrap (a tangle) is high and the thought of tailing a 100' or so of webbing is more than I would want to take on!

I'm thinking if it's mostly pulled in by hand and the winch is only used to snug things up it should be manageable to tail it and keep things from tangling. In that situation you're probably only winching in a few feet of line.

 

[Sababa]

I would consider adding a fairlead of some sort to ensure the working line is always angling down and away from the winch to prevent overrides. I would imagine the cockpit of a 52' is pretty high and rafting or docking would not be a concern but for locking, make sure you have some provision to prevent deckhands from creating a mess of an override.

I think the idea would be to place it near the stern cleats, and bend the lock line from the winch through the cleat to take the upward pull.

 

[Retriever]

Electric winches port and starboard like this make line handling easy even when it's blowing or there's current. These aren't self tailing, but since they're operated by foot pedal they're easy to use. Make sure the drum is big enough to accept 3+ wraps of your normal dock lines. Congrats on the new boat!

 

[AlanT]

Electric winches port and starboard like this make line handling easy even when it's blowing or there's current. These aren't self tailing, but since they're operated by foot pedal they're easy to use. Make sure the drum is big enough to accept 3+ wraps of your normal dock lines. Congrats on the new boat!

Agree that with foot switch operated electric winches you do not need self-tailing. Nice installation!

 

[Seevee]

So, give us uneducated an update on winches....

what's:
self tailing
webbing line
self-tailing mechanism

Bring us up to speed. I've thought of adding a winch but hard to get info on them.

Thx

 

[AlanT]

Self Tailing: You wind the rope 3x around a winch then you have to keep some tension on the tail of the rope so that the coils grip the winch and allow the winch to wind the rope in. A self-tailing winch keeps that tension on the rope, so you dont have to crank with one hand, while maintaining tension with the other.

Webbing line: this is a popular choice for stern lines (Used to secure the stern to a piling or rock onshore when anchored in tight locations). It is a strap so it can be coiled onto a spool taking up much less room than a rope would. Ultra Stern Tie reel is a popular version that can be bought assembled from Defender etc.

Self Tailing mechanism: If you google yacht winches images you will see many of them have a device on top that consists of two plates separated. This traps the rope and holds it to the winch drum. There is also a peeling device that allows the rope to exit the winch without losing the grip on the drum.

 

[BruceK]

Cockpit winches are a great idea for your locking needs. The lack of locks here suggests Maritimo may not have had them in mind for design purposes, check the strength of the mounting area and space to for a backing plate.
I suggest sending Maritimo an email to ask their advice on location etc.

 

[DDW]

You cannot do better than the Andersen winches you referenced. I have 10 of them on the sailboat including 4 powered ones. For dockline tending, I wouldn't bother with electric, it won't help much and they are very pricey. I'd personally want the 28ST for a larger boat, also it is two speed but of course costs more. You can find a better price than Fisheries though. The two speed winch works by reversing the direction of cranking, one way is high speed, the other low speed.

None of them will work with webbing, also in a self tailer, pay attention to the size of line they specifiy: each size will accommodate a range, but you can't go outside of that, and it will work best if you aren't at the edge of the spec.

 

[ofer]

i have never used these although i got 4 of them to be installed soon.

do you have to have a handle on the non self-tailing ones or can you just wrap the line around and use it as extra leverage?

 

[Sababa]

None of them will work with webbing, also in a self tailer,

Even the regular ones won’t work with webbing? Well that’s unfortunate. Truth be told, I don’t like the Ultra stern reels and wouldn’t have bought one myself if it hadn’t come with the boat. The webbing doesn’t float, maxes out at 330’, and vibrates like a guitar string under tension in any sort of wind. I’m thinking of selling it and replacing it with 600’ of floating line on a spool like I had on my old Nordic Tug 37, though I suppose I would have to go with something bulkier for a boat this size.

 

[DDW]

You can use these as snubbing winches without the handle. You always load the line clockwise around the drum (C.C. sailing winches are very rare), the drum will turn freely clockwise but the ratchet pawls will prevent it from turning the other. A self tailing winch can be used like a regular one, hand holding the tail as line is recovered, then the line wrapped into the self tailing jaws to hold it.

I don't know of any sailing winch that will work well with webbing, if at all. They depend on the line feeding in from the bottom, pushing the coil up the drum. Webbing will quickly wrap over itself, jamming the coil and now you won't be able to pull it in or ease it.

One additional point, the line must feed in level with the bottom of the active part of the drum, or lower. If it comes in at a higher angle, there is danger that the new warp will lay over the previous ones, causing a jam. If the winch is to be used in a position that requires line feeding from a higher angle, the normal installation is to tilt the base with blocking so that it feeds the winch correctly.

 

[Osprey69]

Whatever you buy try to buy used. Winches are really robust and do not wear down easily and you can get them at a fraction of the cost. Sailors Exchange in St. Augustine might be a place to start. Electric would require room for the motor beneath.

 

[Greg QS]

I have a single docking winch in the center of the stern operated by a foot switch on the deck. Since its in the center it works for pulling either way. You can tie/lash directly to it for a lock .Pull tight at the dock, lash off and take your time setting you dock line to the cleat. The location is prefect for pulling in a stern anchor.

 

[koliver]

I have a pair on my davits, similar to the Andersons. I use them for my stern tie lines (not webbing, I have a 600' coil of 3/8 yellow line slung on a 1" SS rod above the aft hatch, high enough to be out of the way and always at the ready) and wouldn't go without. Mine are self tailing, single speed. They will handle lines from 3/8" to 5/8", but I find the 3/8 stern line to be robust enough. On your larger boat I would probably use 1/2" for stern tie. If your locking lines are much bigger than 5/8", you may need a larger capacity winch.

 

[Comodave]

Even the regular ones won’t work with webbing? Well that’s unfortunate. Truth be told, I don’t like the Ultra stern reels and wouldn’t have bought one myself if it hadn’t come with the boat. The webbing doesn’t float, maxes out at 330’, and vibrates like a guitar string under tension in any sort of wind. I’m thinking of selling it and replacing it with 600’ of floating line on a spool like I had on my old Nordic Tug 37, though I suppose I would have to go with something bulkier for a boat this size.

As to the vibrating in the wind you might try putting multiple twists in the webbing. This is something that truckers do with tie down straps to stop them from vibrating. But with the longer length it may or may not work.

 

[Sababa]

I have a single docking winch in the center of the stern operated by a foot switch on the deck. Since its in the center it works for pulling either way. You can tie/lash directly to it for a lock .Pull tight at the dock, lash off and take your time setting you dock line to the cleat. The location is prefect for pulling in a stern anchor.

That's a clever solution. Not an option for me since that's where my built-in barbecue is located!

 

[Mana Kai]

One consequence of upsizing to our Maritimo 52 has been that we are more often on the wall going through the Ballard Locks. When locking up, I often find my stern getting kicked out beyond my ability to muscle the lines. If someone is rafted on to us, I have sometimes asked a neighbor to come over and help. I've also used the thrusters at the cockpit helm station to push the stern in and create some slack to snug in. But it's awkward and chaotic either way.

To improve the situation, I was thinking about adding a couple of sailboat winches to the cockpit to get some mechanical advantage. I expect they also could be useful for stern anchoring, which we do a lot of in the summer. I'm not really familiar with the different options, though. Any thoughts on whether it is worth the trouble to go electric or if mechanical will do just fine? Regular vs. self-tailing? I have an Ultra stern tie reel. Will they work with the webbing line?

We have a Kadey Krogen trawler that is 50 feet LOA and have been through the Ballard Locks plenty of times—often on the wall. We found it helpful to run the stern line to the cleat opposite of the wall. It gives you a better angle to pull (I.e. if the port side is next to the wall, run the stern line to the starboard aft cleat). We don’t have any winches in the cockpit.