Champagne Trawler Taste on a Beer Budget

[honeybadger]

Twins are again great for docking and second to a bow thruster ! backing into a slip with i single screw is a aquired talent. Takes some bad docking to get it right. Fast cruisers are different than semi displacement and full displacement hulls. They call it a semi displacement hull but it runs 20 knots ?????? really Read and understand the difference and the good and bad of all designs and flaws they are all in print somewhere.

 

[Marin]

Bill Naugle, Senior Application Engineer at Caterpillar, had another persuasive argument. "A fuel-related problem that kills one engine will probably kill both engines, so reliability isn't equated to redundancy. The redundancy reason just isn't valid."

Here's the big problem I have with statements like this. The statement itself is true, but it's misleading. Over the years I've known, met, or heard about a number of people with power and sailboats, inlcuding us, who have had to shut an engine down or had one shut down on them. And NONE of them had this problem due to a problem related to the fuel itself.

Most of them, including us, had problems with cooling systems that forced a precautionary shutdown. Some of them had fuel system problems on one of or the only engine, like a failed injection pump, cracked injection pipe, failed lift pump, etc. Some had transmission failures. Some had debris get into and bend or break a driveline component--- shaft, prop, strut. This has been as much the case with singles as with twins although the risk is lower with a single. And some people have simply run out of fuel.

But I don't know or haven't heard of anyone who had an engine shut down here due to bad fuel. So I think the argument that a fuel problem that will shut down one engine will shut down both engines is valid, but it's simply not reflected in the real world and it's not a statement that we would consider were we having to make a decision between a single and a twin engine boat. There are a lot of other things we'd consider, but the fuel itself shutting an engine down isn't one of them.

 

[BruceK]

LA Wannabe, that`s a good helpful article. though it misses the ability to steer with twins if steering fails, and keeping up your Seatow (or similar) membership.
My previous boat had a single turbo/after-cooled Perkins, current one has twin FLs naturally aspirated. I`ve not had an engine failure on either, but do regular maintenance. I`m not a fan of turbos which add another layer of possible issues.
You can do many things with a single,without thrusters,but you must understand how and why it works. Twins are easier at close quarters,mostly you don`t use the helm at all, some "single" skills carried across for me. As other contributors have said, it all depends how you will use the boat.
I`m thinking a single, with bow thrusters, plus a "get home"auxiliary, is good,though the last is uncommon. But I`m keeping the Island Gypsy,and the 2 Ford Lehmans, for the foreseeable,and happy with it.BruceK

 

[psneeld]

Mmmmm.... not totally. When you have a tidal range of up to 20 feet, the current even out in the middle of a big body of water like the Strait of Georgia or Queen Charlotte Strait can thump along at a pretty good clip as that massive volume of water flushes out and then returns twice a day. Yes, you're right

....snip...

either motive power or steerage I can say it's a definite possibility here. In one case steering was restored minutes before the boat went into the rocks. In another the Canadian CG arrived just in time to tow the powerless sailboat away from the shoreline.

Q: Where are the fastest tidal currents?

Below is a list of the 50 locations in North America with the fastest tidal currents. Station Name Latitude Longitude Speed(knots) Flood EbbSeymour Narrows 50 8.00N 125 21.00W 9.2 9.8 Hole In The Wall, Okisollo Channel 50 18.00N 125 13.00W 7.5 7.5 ...

bad formatting so here's the link...

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/faq4.html

while it's obvious a lot of the bad currents are in the PNW passages due to constriction and tidal range...there are other many other places that consistently have tidal flows in excess of 2-3 knots...my marina.

...and yes driving a single in and out of it is a huge question mark if the engine ever fails...but even the best capatins I know....even with twins... would lose control when tying to get in a slip.

In open water around here...you anchor. Up where you are with both the deep/rocky waters and remoteness...I would probbly lean heavily towards owning a twin also.

 

[ksanders]

What people seem to overlook in this twin Vs Single engine debate is that the passagemakers that run single engines almost always are dry stack and keel cooled.

Some of these engines also have eliminated belts from the design I believe.

This makes for a very simple engine with fewer things that can go wrong with them.

 

[psneeld]

What people seem to overlook in this twin Vs Single engine debate is that the passagemakers that run single engines almost always are dry stack and keel cooled.

Some of these engines also have eliminated belts from the design I believe.

This makes for a very simple engine with fewer things that can go wrong with them.

True but even those items are simple to fix underway (except in bad weather) and rarely break with regular maintenance....worst would be sucking up something that would be difficult to clear...but yes if a true passagemaker I would try and eliminate the simple also.

 

[FF]

there have been plenty of instances, even in waters where tow services are less than an hour away, where boats have been carried into rocks, onto a reef, or up against the shore within a very short time after power was lost.

Guess they don't carry an anchor anymore?

FF

 

[Nomad Willy]

What most all of you are saying when you say a twin engined boat takes twice the maint and burns lots more fuel is that you're not comparing twins and singles. You're simply comparing a 120hp boat w a 240hp boat. A twin and a single w the same total power will burn almost exactly the same fuel and require almost exactly the same money to maintain. Almost no difference and the difference that emerges is usually not even related to twins v/s singles. The only real difference is initial cost and maneuverability. And consider that most things that cost more money that people buy are better.

 

[Rambler]

And sometimes with engine(s) working just fine you still end up on the rocks:

Anyone think he can get out of that with a sand wedge?

 

[psneeld]

What most all of you are saying when you say a twin engined boat takes twice the maint and burns lots more fuel is that you're not comparing twins and singles. You're simply comparing a 120hp boat w a 240hp boat. A twin and a single w the same total power will burn almost exactly the same fuel and require almost exactly the same money to maintain. Almost no difference and the difference that emerges is usually not even related to twins v/s singles. The only real difference is initial cost and maneuverability. And consider that most things that cost more money that people buy are better.

Well...I don't think I've ever read something in such complete disagreement with everything I have read on the subject.

While the fuel burn isn't as big of a difference as many think (but you DO have to be comparing apples to apples which is almost impossible or if not impossible...it's rarely done)...as has been pointed out...the more you use the boat the more costly the twins will be...again apples to apples.

It's not fair to say a million plus boat with a $45,000 new engine is cheaper than the guy with a old boat with a pair of tired 3208s that STill have 10 years left before a rebuild drop in that will cost $25000 or so and the whole boat only cost $75000....in that case the twins would be cheaper for the average boater by a long shot.

But apples to apples ...not only purchase price is there, rebuild/replace will be way more...maybe not double...and many guys I know unless one went WAY prematurely...the'll do both at the same time...again this only applies to certain ranges of engines....sure there are combos of boats/engines that will be just the opposite where a bigger single may cost more than twins...but that's not what this discussion is really about.

So you truly have to compare apples to apples and unless buying new and have the choice between twins/single in a particular model...most will never be able to say they chose with absolute numbers in mind....it more just preference.

 

[Blue Heron]

I bought my trawler with the primary consideration of the reliability and longetivity of the motors. I hope to get 15 - 20 years out of these with preventative maintenance schedule. I don't know how well they were treated the first 27 years but the Oil Analysis was favorable.
Time will tell.

 

[RickB]

Q: Where are the fastest tidal currents?

Below is a list of the 50 locations in North America with the fastest tidal currents.

I guess none of the NOAA people ever made it to Nakwakto Rapids (Tremble Island at the mouth of Seymour Inlet) the current there runs around 8 knots on a normal ebb and a few times a year goes up to 16.

I used to go through there with a tug and barge and even near slack it was awesome. It made Seymour Narrows look mild and Hole in the Wall was pretty tame. Of course the tug captain on that run was probably one of the best on that coast and made most passages look easy.

 

[Marin]

there have been plenty of instances, even in waters where tow services are less than an hour away, where boats have been carried into rocks, onto a reef, or up against the shore within a very short time after power was lost.

Guess they don't carry an anchor anymore?

FF

When you have water that can be several hundred feet deep almost right up to the shoreline deploying the anchor is no guarantee you'll stay off the rocks. It's not like that everywhere up here, of course, but in the two cases I cited above it was.

 

[psneeld]

I guess none of the NOAA people ever made it to Nakwakto Rapids (Tremble Island at the mouth of Seymour Inlet) the current there runs around 8 knots on a normal ebb and a few times a year goes up to 16.

I used to go through there with a tug and barge and even near slack it was awesome. It made Seymour Narrows look mild and Hole in the Wall was pretty tame. Of course the tug captain on that run was probably one of the best on that coast and made most passages look easy.

I'm sure there are a few out there that NOAA missed...

But the reality is if conditions exist that would exceed the capabilities of you or the boat at ANY time...don't go there...doesn't mean go boat there...just don't be there at the wrong time if it is possible.

Where I boat, lots of boaters boat according to the strength of the tidal currents. In many marinas, several knots are the norm making single engine ops (either starting that way or a twin with one down) pretty iffy for most boaters.

 

[Marin]

Other than transiting the stronger rapids, narrows, and passes, most of the boaters I know don't tailor their cruising to the tides an currents. When cruising through the islands in particular, depending on one's destination it's common to be going with the current on one leg, against it n the next, across it on the next, and so on.

It's always nice when we can get a two or thee knot push from the current but we don't alter our schedule if we don't. For example on this last trip to Anacortes we were getting a 2 knot push on the way down, but since we came home at about the same time three days later we bucked a 1.5 to 2 knot current on the way back. Waiting for a more favorable current was not an option that day.

Add to this the fact that slack current can sometimes last only 15 minutes or so, and boaters here are dealing with a current pretty much all the time. So if one has to wait for a tow boat to arrive, a lot can happen in a half hour. From what we hear on the radio most assistance boats are looking at 30 minutes to an hour to reach the boats that need help and the farther up the coast you go the longer those times will be. Of course there are often other boats nearby that can offer assistance quicker than the commercial services can get there. But other boats start getting few and far between as you go north or boat in the fall, winter, and spring.

So a boater is as likely to be left to their own resources in the event of a power or steerage loss as they are to be in range of assistance. And the currents don't wait if your breakdown puts you in danger of going into the rocks within a short time of the breakdown.

This scenario is not common, engine and transmission reliability being what it is, but it's a situation that's always out there.

 

[Moonstruck]

Sometimes more makes you look stupid:

I suspect the pic was doctored, but still.

Is the fuel burn on a boat with 8 200hp engines equal to a boat with 4 400hp engines? I have always wondered about that.

Also, if you are docking an 8 engine boat and lose power in one engine, how do you compensate for the loss?

 

[Marin]

Also, if you are docking an 8 engine boat and lose power in one engine, how do you compensate for the loss?

More fundamentally, how do you know one of the eight engines has quit?

 

[Moonstruck]

More fundamentally, how do you know one of the eight engines has quit?

the handling will get all quirky?

You have probably heard the story of the B-52 pilot reporting that he was landing with one engine out. A near by F-15 pilot said, "gee, it must be tough landing with only 7 engines".

 

[refugio]

the handling will get all quirky?

People laugh and point?

 

[Rambler]

Somewhere on TF is a thread that talks about prop walk. I suppose with that many engines it's a prop dance? Would that be a line dance since they're all in a row?

 

[twiisted71]

I wonder if they shut down 7 of them and practice docking with only one!?

Also wonder if 2000HP is really necessary or if they were just succumbing to current more is better trend in the blow-up market?

The story on these a while back is that they were drug runner specials.

 

[RickB]

They rarely got a chance to practice anything.

Photo of a High Speed Boat Used to Smuggle Drugs-Truth!

 

[twiisted71]

according to the full article quite a few were built and sold around Europe. They never do admit how many are out there! 900 liters/hour makes my trawler look like its "making" fuel!

Boatbuilding firm supplied 'uncatchable' boats to smugglers, court hears | Mail Online

 

[Rambler]

That's what I was wondering. What's the fuel burn rate? And how much fuel can you really carry on there? The hull below decks must be one huge fuel tank.

 

[Marin]

The English Channel is not that wide--- 20 miles or so at some points--- and at the speed these boats go the engines only need to run at full power for perhaps thirty minutes.