Cargo Wake Issue / Newer Boater

[huruta]

oooo.....data! I love data. So, we encountered this guy about 3-4 green dots N of where you had him, we were ~parallel with Suquamish or maybe Agate Point. I think he was going faster when we encountered him; at least that's what our Marine Traffic said, but yep - that's the culprit. We were (and still are) kind of wondering where we'd actually go and how the wave would dissipate if we did it all over again. Perhaps a bit further N; angle, timing and speed could have reduced impact.

 

[porman]

I second the comment about the large tugboat wakes. A few weeks ago we were passing West Point headed for Bell Harbor when a large tug left Elliot Bay towards Bainbridge Island. He left a huge wake. Ten minutes later he turned around and headed back into Elliot Bay and we got hit again. Water over the bow both times.

 

[RedRascal]

...Taking a tides and currents class next month, sounds like this will be good information to have...

Good idea...during the class ask if they can talk about the currents off Port Townsend where Admiralty Inlet meets the strait(two big bodies of water meet), Deception Pass(fast currents) and Swinomish Channel(less precise current data). You'll need to get comfortable with some combination of the above as you expand your cruising grounds. Each of those areas have different challenges that you need to manage. Once you understand how they work you can use them to your advantage in different weather conditions.

 

[psneeld]

I'm not that experienced with wave height estimation, but I'm thinking we aren't that far off. Per our boat specs, the distance from water level to peak of bow on our Nordic 32 is 5'8" and the 2nd wave crashed over our bow, so probably not too far off. I think this wake size is an anomaly based on comments here (thankfully) and probably due to how laden down the boat was, it's size and speed. Regardless of exact height, the wake was substantial and I've learned a lot about potential wakes from large ships that we'll take forward as we head out in the future!

Large wakes from large ships depend on a myriad of factors including ship speed through the water, shale and depth of vessel, water depth, distance from ship (but it can be miles) and probably more.

I operated in the Delaware River commercially and the wakes there are notorious because the right combo of factors. I also frequented the approaches to the Delaware and NY Harbor. Riding up and over 5-6 footers was very common. Just because some haven't experienced large wakes doesn't mean they don't happen.

If in the confines of a river or harbor, yes learning to be observant and prepared is a good idea.

 

[Hippocampus]

RT the standing waves are well known. We’ve transited that spot probably hundreds of times so know them all to well. Usually a minor inconvenience caused by a southerly wind blowing up buzzards bay when the current is exiting the cape cod canal. That’s why we were buttoned up. I posted that story to demonstrate as ps points out there can be a multiplicity of factors the can lead to the occasional most remarkable wakes.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Now an "I didn't get waked story." I was going through Thatcher Pass when I was passed by a +60 boat on plane (actually, on plough). I hadn't seen it coming and nowhere to avoid the 6' wake. As I prepared to time my turn into it, stow any loose items, and slow to less than 4 knots, I noticed that the monster boat came down off plough for a hundred yards and then hit the throttle again. I kept my lookout for when to make my turn, but noticed that the wake coming towards me was now the tiny wake he had generated from the few seconds that he had slowed to hull speed. He had timed slowing from 20 knots and, based on my 6.5 knots and his distance from him, didn't wake me. I gave him a thank you on 16. It did cost him 10 seconds (and probably a gallon of diesel in that rig).

I now see this technique for determining if the helmsmen of this type of vessel is qualified to operate it. So far, I've only seen the one.

 

[rslifkin]

Now an "I didn't get waked story." I was going through Thatcher Pass when I was passed by a +60 boat on plane (actually, on plough). I hadn't seen it coming and nowhere to avoid the 6' wake. As I prepared to time my turn into it, stow any loose items, and slow to less than 4 knots, I noticed that the monster boat came down off plough for a hundred yards and then hit the throttle again. I kept my lookout for when to make my turn, but noticed that the wake coming towards me was now the tiny wake he had generated from the few seconds that he had slowed to hull speed. He had timed slowing from 20 knots and, based on my 6.5 knots and his distance from him, didn't wake me. I gave him a thank you on 16. It did cost him 10 seconds (and probably a gallon of diesel in that rig).

I now see this technique for determining if the helmsmen of this type of vessel is qualified to operate it. So far, I've only seen the one.

Another thing to watch for is if they trim the bow down and sometimes speed up a bit. On many planing boats that can reduce the wake significantly from what they throw at a normal planing cruise, but without the momentarily larger wake caused by dropping off or climbing onto plane.

 

[psneeld]

Now an "I didn't get waked story." I was going through Thatcher Pass when I was passed by a +60 boat on plane (actually, on plough). I hadn't seen it coming and nowhere to avoid the 6' wake. As I prepared to time my turn into it, stow any loose items, and slow to less than 4 knots, I noticed that the monster boat came down off plough for a hundred yards and then hit the throttle again. I kept my lookout for when to make my turn, but noticed that the wake coming towards me was now the tiny wake he had generated from the few seconds that he had slowed to hull speed. He had timed slowing from 20 knots and, based on my 6.5 knots and his distance from him, didn't wake me. I gave him a thank you on 16. It did cost him 10 seconds (and probably a gallon of diesel in that rig).

I now see this technique for determining if the helmsmen of this type of vessel is qualified to operate it. So far, I've only seen the one.

Yet it may cause wear and tear on really expensive diesels.

It might be used sometimes, but on the ACIW you won't find many that will do that every time if they are snowbirding as it would have to be done a hundred or so times a day.

Qualified may not really fit your definition.

Plus if the timing is off a bit, caused by either, as said the wake could be even worse. Predictable on a vessel is a good thing as evidenced by the COLREGS.

 

[Shrew]

I have no idea how far out he was when you saw him. If I can cross their bow I will. One technique I use is to turn and run in the same direction as them, then start to crab across their course. Once clear, turn back to my original course. It might take you a mile or two off course, but with you both going in the same direction, it can significantly increase the time needed.

As mentioned early AIS helps as it should give you the vessel speed. Obviously, I've I'm doing 8kts and they're doing 25 kts, I'm not going to flirt with disaster.

 

[wkearney99]

It’s deceptive how fast they’re going given they’re so large so you can’t trust your eyes. AIS/radar is better in this situation.

You're right about this. Even on the Chesapeake. It surprised me to see the stats from the radar about cruise ship out of Baltimore, passing under the Bay Bridge... doing 30kts!

 

[wkearney99]

He had timed slowing from 20 knots and, based on my 6.5 knots and his distance from him, didn't wake me. I gave him a thank you on 16. It did cost him 10 seconds (and probably a gallon of diesel in that rig).

I now see this technique for determining if the helmsmen of this type of vessel is qualified to operate it. So far, I've only seen the one.

I try to do this when on some of the rivers around here. There's little point in my barreling along throwing a huge wake when I can slow for well under a minute and not ruin the day of someone else puttering along.

I share your dismay at not seeing the practice done more often.

 

[Blissboat]

You're right about this. Even on the Chesapeake. It surprised me to see the stats from the radar about cruise ship out of Baltimore, passing under the Bay Bridge... doing 30kts!

Now that I'd like to see. I am unaware of any passenger cruise ship capable of anywhere close to 30 knots since the days of the trans-Atlantic passenger liners such as the SS United States, the original Queens (Elizabeth and Mary), or the SS France.

 

[wkearney99]

Now that I'd like to see. I am unaware of any passenger cruise ship capable of anywhere close to 30 knots since the days of the trans-Atlantic passenger liners such as the SS United States, the original Queens (Elizabeth and Mary), or the SS France.

All I remember is we had guests aboard a previous boat (that, when pushed, would do around 35kts). We were going to 'take a closer look' but I found I was making zero headway on closing the gap. I brought up the radar, picked the target and it was doing much faster than I expected. And I wasn't willing to hemorrhage fuel to catch up to it. My memory of the exact speed may be incorrect though. It was still steaming along a LOT faster than I'd expected. It was a Raymarine E-80 setup, fwiw.

 

[psneeld]

From the web cruisecritic.com....

"The average speed of a modern cruise ship is roughly 20 knots (23 miles per hour), with maximum speeds reaching about 30 knots (34.5 miles per hour). How fast a ship is able to sail depends on several factors, including the power of its engines, the weather and the conditions at sea."

 

[Moonfish]

A 1,000-foot, heavily laden freighter making 17 knots in Puget Sound is always going to make a big wake! We experienced the very same thing just north of Kingston. Rocked the snot out of us.

Looks like your two biggest take aways from this thread are, one: find the angle of attack that works best for your hull. And two: slowing down a bit will allow more time for a wake to potentially dissipate, as well as give you more time between wake one and two. We will slow down to 4-4.5 knots in such cases.

There have also been times where we've been aware of an incoming "wake maker", and we've adjusted course specifically to gain as much distance as possible.

 

[Northern Spy]

I don't have an AIS receiver on board, but I do use marine traffic on my phone to check out the size and speed of commercial vessels and large yachts to predict how their wave/wake is going to hit me.

 

[tiltrider1]

There is a pretty constant parade of ships cruising the Puget Sound at 20-22 kts. You will find that the wakes are fairly consistent but every now and then you will find one that puts out almost no wake and one that puts out a monster wake.

More importantly, these wakes will help you prepare should you ever head out Admiralty Inlet. There the tidal currents often mix with the sea swell giving you bigger standing waves than you will see coming off a freighter. The trick here is just slow down.

 

[Fletcher500]

Many factors influence wake size and being in a confined channel with shallower areas is one of the biggest. In general, many boaters often inflate swell and wake sizes but I can now see how a 6 ft wake would develop as noted by the OP for that situation.

In LA and LB Harbors, the ships have slowed considerably and probably less than 10 Kns as they make their final approach. Inside the harbors they are tug assisted and slow putting. I have never experienced a wake greater than 3 to 4 ft in the aforementioned cases and that includes both inside and outside the harbor. And that is also from a kayak sitting at eye level to the ocean during several crossings of the Catalina channel and hitting ships wakes.

When the ships hit the main offshore channel near Ventura they are now up to speed running 15 to 20 Kns. I always give them as wide berth as possible but have had some fairly close encounters and find that 3 to 4 ft is the norm.

 

[Greg QS]

Sort of simple here. Big ships, big wakes and pre pare for them.
The closer to them the bigger the wake. Give big ships plenty of birth. Made the same mistake myself , we paralleled a large ship at night. We chatted on vhf . I was Probally closer to it than in the day time, I Never saw the wake 8' and yes the coffee went flying. OOPS.

 

[Benthic2]

Now that I'd like to see. I am unaware of any passenger cruise ship capable of anywhere close to 30 knots ....

In the early 90's I worked on a cruise ship that was originally built for transatlantic travel in 1963, but just did Florida to Bahamas during my time on her. Her service speed was up to 30 mph, and her max speed was 35. At one point the company CEO was considering a marketing campaign showing her towing water skiers. She was such an amazing vessel and a huge part of my life.

 

[Hippocampus]

Everyone talks about slowing down and that’s fine if you can head into a wake and ride over it. But sometimes you can’t. Unlike prior sailboats where we’d use the trick of angling to surf on the wake with the current SD motor boat we can head down but pick the speed to to run exactly between two of the wake waves (or in front of the first one). Then by varying speed allow that wake to slowly overtake us and past us by.
Find slowly surfing the wake is often the better option in places like the Delaware, lower NYC bay, any canal or tightly constricted space where you’re being overtaken.

 

[Bmarler]

Now an "I didn't get waked story." I was going through Thatcher Pass when I was passed by a +60 boat on plane (actually, on plough). I hadn't seen it coming and nowhere to avoid the 6' wake. As I prepared to time my turn into it, stow any loose items, and slow to less than 4 knots, I noticed that the monster boat came down off plough for a hundred yards and then hit the throttle again. I kept my lookout for when to make my turn, but noticed that the wake coming towards me was now the tiny wake he had generated from the few seconds that he had slowed to hull speed. He had timed slowing from 20 knots and, based on my 6.5 knots and his distance from him, didn't wake me. I gave him a thank you on 16. It did cost him 10 seconds (and probably a gallon of diesel in that rig).

I now see this technique for determining if the helmsmen of this type of vessel is qualified to operate it. So far, I've only seen the one.

Purely coincidental. The skipper probably just needed to use the head and slowed to give himself some time.

 

[psneeld]

Wakes are more like standing waves in inlets or other places where their shape is much more square because of their distance apart and potential of breaking than ocean waves.

Deciding what speed plus what angle, against or with are factors that one needs to evaluate and then decide. Your boat, the size and shape of the wake, its speed, your speed, etc, etc all factor into it too. You have to be aware that a ship nearby could cause a big wake and you need to start being acutely aware and start planning.

Deciding on the wrong maneuver unless a really unusual circumstance might be unpleasant, scary, damaging to a gergree....but rarely fatal.

The worst you can do is probably get into a broaching situation which unless your boat is small with unusual characteristics and rather small....is also unlikely but one that additional bad technique can go south quickly.

This is all for open water, in canals, rivers, harbors where maneuvering is limited, hopefully the ship has a speed limitation to keep their wakes bad but not lethal so slowing and picking a good angle based on your boat length so you don't stuff your bow is about all you can do.

 

[PierreR]

i made this mistake about 40 years ago. I was sailing a 22' snailboat. I was off Sleeping Bear Dunes in the Manitou Pass when a 1,000 ft ore boat went by me about half a mile away. I knew I would not be hit by it as the compass was clocking to pass port to port. I was mesmerized until I realized a huge wake was bearing down on me. I turned into it, but it was a wild ride. After that I had more respect.
Big boats create a pressure wave when close to them. This is especially true if the water is shallow and the channel narrow.
I repaired damage to my neighbors 34' SeaRay. He was trying to dock at a concrete dock for fuel and did not notice a sportfish created a huge wake. He had tunnel drives and the wake picked up his stern and surfed him bow down into the concrete dock. The dock caved in the bow for 3' and separated at the deck joint. He got out of boating within a year.

 

[soin2la]

You encountered the bow wave of a ship…I used to kayak off of Kingston when I lived there. Always kept on eye out for shipping waves.

I’m surprised it took so long for bow waves to be mentioned.
As a kid on the BC coast, long before kayaks and SUPs, a busted up, flat cedar log was our paddle board. When the “paper boats” from a mill cruised by we took joy in riding both bow and stern waves.

I’m also surprised, or at least I’ve not seen mention of, a sub in Puget Sound surfacing at high speed, 100 yards away.

 

[Portage_Bay]

The subs transiting Puget Sound travel on the surface with escorts. The only exception that I am aware of is on the Dabob Bay torpedo testing range. I have witnessed a demonstration of an emergency surface and emergency dive of a ballistic sub on that range. Very impressive.

.....I’m also surprised, or at least I’ve not seen mention of, a sub in Puget Sound surfacing at high speed, 100 yards away.

 

[tiltrider1]

The subs transiting Puget Sound travel on the surface with escorts. The only exception that I am aware of is on the Dabob Bay torpedo testing range. I have witnessed a demonstration of an emergency surface and emergency dive of a ballistic sub on that range. Very impressive.

This is not completely correct. While rare subs do surface in the Puget Sound. Fortunately a whole host of escort boats clear the area before they surface.

Sub wakes are massive but they are not steep. I don’t enjoy them but i don’t worry about getting tossed around.

 

[Airstream345]

First of all a big compliment to the OP for making a good decision (didn't cross in front of it) and for the after action discussion (with the crew) and then the extra step of gathering perspective from others.

We've experienced the same thing just north of there on a few occasions the worse of which was Christmas week two years ago returning from Victoria BC to Seattle when we got squeezed between Marrowstone Island and a bulk carrier heading south in the VTS going 20 knots. Like you exeperienced the worst of it was heading down the first wave and bashing into the second. Our daughter who was hanging out in the v-berth reported beging airborne long enough to consider if "this was how it ends". . Considering our anchors are 9 feet off the water and we buried them into the top of the second wave it was an experience we'll never forget. In our case we didn't have two things we needed: the time to react and the distance to do something about it.

A few things we've learned from that experience and others like it since then are:

• Can you avoid it in the first place? I keep one chart zoomed way out so I can see larger ships on AIS miles away and will often adjust my route or speed 30 minutes or more in an effort to avoid a close pass

• If you have ARPA and/or AIS then CPA is your friend. I use this all the time to make decisions like "can I cross in front of that ferry?" or "are we both going to be in that pass at the same time?" or "how close will we be and where (CPA)?", etc

• Whenever possible put as much distance between you and the wake as possible. As a wake travels it's amplitude decreases and it's period increases essentially losing energy. I've gone so far as to turn away from a wake (into Port Madison for example) to buy some time for the wave to chill out.

• With experience you can look at a bow wave and how the wake is coming off the stern with binoculars and tell if it's a big one or not.

• The VHF radio is your friend. When in doubt I'll call the ship and discuss passing, destination and crossing plans. Sometimes they respond on 16, sometimes on 13 and almost always on Seattle traffic CH14. In many cases they are appreciative for the call especially in passing negotiations.

That particular stretch it tough given it's narrow with a lot of current. Recreational boats are typically pushed between the VTS and the shoreline while massive, heavy freighters are bookin' it down to Seattle or Tacoma going 17 knots plus. Add in fishing season and even the shoreline near Kingston or Point No Point aren't in play to travel through at cruising speed forcing you even closer to the VTS.

I'm just glad you didn't try to pass and have clearly taken steps to gain knowledge so you can avoid this in the future.

 

[NWboater2]

That ship is 1190 feet long. Wow.
Few summers ago took the holby 24 to roche, stayed at a cottage with boat on dock for daytime activities like looking for orcas in Haro Straight. Dead calm 80 plus degrees lots of boats and lots of whales, north of lime kiln. Saw a big container ship screaming north. it’s dark blue wake just kept coming. Wasn’t sure what to do. Started boat got parallel to massive wake at zero speed. Kids laughing nervously. Bobbed up and down rolled some but did not get wet.
Big sporty on a plane way inside us also going north didn’t see it. Threw her toward the not far away shoreline. could hear the props leave the water screaming then cut to idle. Scared the holy crap out of them I’m sure. Whales didn’t care.

I grew up on fox island where there used to be a sonar range for submarines, especially the then-new Ohio class boomers. We didn’t really know they were there, even though the red lights were on, and i was water skiing behind a 16’ glastron with one person in the boat when what turned out to be the alabama suddenly surfaced and scared the **** out of me and the driver, who cut the throttle, like the guy in haro.
Yeah subs in puget sound often (mostly?) travel on the surface, with very serious and touchy escorts, but you never see or even think about the ones that don’t.

 

[soin2la]

Saw a big container ship screaming north. it’s dark blue wake just kept coming. Whales didn’t care.

Whales like to play in big ship wakes.
https://fb.watch/4t2Wfdy3pd/

https://fb.watch/4t2NGronf8/