Autonomous marine travel

[Invincible Summer]

Like it or not, and I don't, electricity and electronics already have my life in their hands. Modern cars for one example are drive by wire, no hard linkage to steering, brakes and engine. Autonomy is not about the connections, it's about the decision making. Our 2 yr old Subaru already makes some of the decisions. Reducing the throttle or hitting the brakes if need be without our intervention. Doing it's best to keep us in the lane. Even when I'm driving the old mostly mechanical pickup my life is in the hands of the "smart" components of the vehicles around me. Autonomy is coming and it's coming fast. I'm uncomfortable with it. But there isn't anything I can do about it.

Yeah, I'm referring to *all* decisions, not portions of decisions that are supervised by a human.

Interestingly enough, I had a conversation with an individual who is in a *very* well placed position in a leading engineering group working on that very subject. He told me point blank that it will never happen without government assistance. That government assistance needs to come in the form of sensor and communication arrays along roadways that communicate with vehicles. He cited a number of factors that are beyond the ability of a vehicle alone to navigate.

In any event, a pilot program with government sensor arrays is currently being done in Texas, along SH130 from Georgetown to south of Austin ... so that effort is beginning. They are already having issues.

How anyone can expect a vehicle to navigate construction zones without being told what to expect, where it needs to be, etc, is a head scratcher.

Additionally, I interviewed an individual for a position in my company who used to work for a very notable autonomous vehicle company. Part of that person's job was to chase down vehicles that broke through the geo-fence and kept going. The person stated it happened constantly and they could not figure out why. It scared them because the area outside of the geo-fence was not fully mapped and they had no idea what the vehicle may or may not do. The person told me what the public does not know about those vehicles "would scare the livin crap out of them". The person saw the writing on the wall and quit. With a smirk, the person told me the company is "very happy with the investment money coming in."

That industry has a long, long, long way to go. In the meantime, the key players are getting rich. And so it goes.

"We wanted flying cars. Instead we got 140 characters.” - Peter Thiel

 

[psneeld]

Isn't there already autonomous taxis in San Francisco?

 

[Invincible Summer]

Air travel. Train Travel. Hospital equipment. A good blender.

Good grief ... I am living in the wrong space and time. I had absolutely no idea that pilots, conductors, medical personnel, and bar tenders were out looking for new careers!

 

[Invincible Summer]

Isn't there already autonomous taxis in San Francisco?

The ones that people say smell like urine, feces, puke, and other unmentionables? Mmmm Hmmmm, ordering up one of those!

 

[psneeld]

Good grief ... I am living in the wrong space and time. I had absolutely no idea that pilots, conductors, medical personnel, and bar tenders were out looking for new careers!

You asked and I answered....you are behind the times.....

 

[psneeld]

The ones that people say smell like urine, feces, puke, and other unmentionables? Mmmm Hmmmm, ordering up one of those!

Not the point...autonomous travel does not necessarily rely on external sensors if the ones on board are adequate.

Don't change the subject.

 

[Invincible Summer]

You asked and I answered....you are behind the times.....

Please, I'm interested in knowing where people would book a flight on a plane with no pilots? Awaiting your answer!

 

[Invincible Summer]

Not the point...autonomous travel does not necessarily rely on external sensors if the ones on board are adequate.

Don't change the subject.

All I'm saying is give it time. Like the CyberTruck, the writing is on the wall.

 

[psneeld]

Please, I'm interested in knowing where people would book a flight on a plane with no pilots? Awaiting your answer!

That's NOT what you asked in post #57....


This is "Have you ever, in your entire life, encountered a piece of electrical equipment that you would bet your life on?"

 

[psneeld]

All I'm saying is give it time. Like the CyberTruck, the writing is on the wall.

It is written on the wall...but NOT what you think...the San Fran taxis are just an early step in that direction...along with vessels that are already autonomous.... can't change reality by pointing out only failure and not successes.

Not saying total autonomous travel is around the corner...but it does exist now in limited ways and more people are working towards it than against it in my estimation.

 

[Benthic2]

Maybe there could be a computer system some day that will do all of those things. But I doubt it will be in my lifetime.

If computers can get a spaceship to land on the moon, I am sure they can get your boat to another port. I would think driving a car has more decisions per second than a boat because speeds are higher and there are more cars than boats. Autonomous cars are a realilty so it makes sense that boats would follow along.

The Navy has some interesting drone ships that are self driving and can also be operated remotely. They are even working on a drone sub. The picture is the 132 foot long Sea Hunter. It has a range of 10,000 miles and a top speed of 27 kts.

 

[Invincible Summer]

That's NOT what you asked in post #57....


This is "Have you ever, in your entire life, encountered a piece of electrical equipment that you would bet your life on?"

And preferenced that question with "I think that those who are interested in autonomous anything need to ask themselves a simple question"

Context is everything. Don't change the subject.

 

[psneeld]

And preferenced that question with "I think that those who are interested in autonomous anything need to ask themselves a simple question"

Context is everything. Don't change the subject.

I can read and don't think your context point is germane. Trust in electrics, electronics and sensors are how we do most travel nowadays anyhow...combine the best of these, add a computer with AI and you have autonomous travel. So trusting your life to one or a thousand sensors with redundancy are what will make it happen. Either onboard or external.

Yes.... I am already trusting my life to all the components of autonomous travel in some ways. It's been proven it works and more is right around the corner.

The question for many of us is how much of it will we allow to do for us. Not all or none necessarily.

 

[Jklotz]

https://youtu.be/N1A29GUqIv0?si=vfKiiU65bqiBzkgT

 

[Jklotz]

https://youtu.be/N1A29GUqIv0?si=vfKiiU65bqiBzkgT

 

[Action]

Waymo is testing AI cars in Phoenix. Has been for some time as Phoenix and San Franciso are Waymo test cities.
Nearly every day I see a white Waymo car driving around with no one sitting in the driver's seat. It is eerie.
The back windows are so darkened, I have no idea if anyone IS in the car. Or if it is just driving around empty.

https://waymo.com/
BTW Waymo is not been accident free in their 15 years on the street.

I might embrace that tech, only if the company shares liability to an event. And when I say sharing, I mean that the AI company takes the majority of the liability.

Because if some system is operating my vessel and I am doing something else. I don't want to take the financial hit for an event or for the future cost of liability insurance. If that is not the case, I might as well be in full control of the vessel anyway.

 

[SteveK]

Waymo was Google self driving cars back to 2009.
They had a human sitting in the drivers seat ready to take over in the early days as I recall.

 

[BruceK]

Would it halt or prevent the movement/operation of a ship pending repair where the electrics and or propulsion and steering were cutting in and out? If so, there might be something to be said for it.

 

[Benthic2]

Because if some system is operating my vessel and I am doing something else. I don't want to take the financial hit for an event or for the future cost of liability insurance. If that is not the case, I might as well be in full control of the vessel anyway.

Colregs would still require someone to be on watch so I think any accident would still be the captain's fault

 

[psneeld]

Colregs would still require someone to be on watch so I think any accident would still be the captain's fault

Not sure what you are saying. Maybe the problem is using "autonomous" and how it fits to pleasure boating. Not much pleasure if you are not aboard. Now, some may use the tech like a hired captain/crew...and in that case the installed tech should be exactly the same in required performance.

Generally, autonomous shipping means no human is aboard....so no human lookout.

AI is the lookout and a better one than that in many cases.... pretty sure that cameras using all wavelengths of light are far superior for just detecting objects. Thus why humans developed night vision and FLIR.

Not sure if autonomous ships will require a change to the COLREGS or whether the ships will just be certified to meet the current regs.

 

[Cold Duck]

Saw the same video. They mentioned bouys so I’d have to ask, why didn’t the “safe” autorouting avoid that in the first place.



In Hawaii we have bouys in 5,000 ft of water. Their location, depending on currents, can vary up to a mile. I assume the radar would catch this discrepancy and do the reroute.

 

[Mambo42]

https://youtu.be/N1A29GUqIv0?si=vfKiiU65bqiBzkgT

Saw the video, sounds interesting, but I do have some remarks with regard to this vessel.
It will be able to move autonomous, but it won't be able to move without crew, so that makes me wonder: 'what is the point ?' In the end you will need people on board with not only the knowledge to maintain this vessel, but also to operate it, to extinguish fires when they happen. And that requires a very high level of training, much more than what is required now. So aren't they setting themselves up for a personnel shortage ?

Second question that came up is more like a remark. Although they make it want to sound this is a green vessel, in reality that is not the case. The emissions during construction, during production of the batteries etc is going to be massive. And then we have not even spoken about the most important item. This ship runs on hydrogen and, unless something has changed lately, it costs more energy to make Hydrogen than what you get out of it. In other words, fossil fuels will be used to make hydrogen, which will then need to be transported to the ship, so that the ship can claim it is emission free.

I do like a different approach and that is LNG. Already much cleaner than heavy fuel, but more efficient than hydrogen.

 

[Hippocampus]

https://youtu.be/N1A29GUqIv0?si=vfKiiU65bqiBzkgT

Thanks for the link. I’m aware of an ongoing study concerning shipping around Boston MA. There’s major health implications to living near an active port where there’s correlation to higher risks of cardiovascular disease, respiratory diseases and shorter lifespans. Found it intriguing the Norway ships ran on batteries as well as evolving into being autonomous. Neighbor hoods studied included Revere and east Boston which are working class towns. Of interest a similar set up as is near the port of Baltimore and Key bridge.
As stated before given transportation accidents are now majority due to human error be it land, air or sea a driver has been the insurance industry. Add in ecological concerns (Exxon Valdez, various bridge accidents, cruise ship accidents) there’s motivation beyond just CO2 and particulate release. In all fields of transportation automatic disabling of the vehicle occurs if the sensors become aware of an unsafe condition. One of my current vehicles a diesel jeep is currently in the shop as they try to fix its DEF system. The car won’t go without a functional system. The tech is currently available to prevent a ship from departing if an unsafe situation exists. Sensors for dirty fuel, batteries past their service life, faulty alternators, propulsion engine parameters etc exists now. However human judgment calls the shot so preventable accidents occur. Remember in the Costa Concordia accident the captain turned off the electronic navigation system stating he knew the area so navigated by eye sight alone.
The link also mentions service requirements. My Rivian is in person service free other than rotating and replacing tires. Brakes take decades to wear out due to regenerative braking and with electric motors reliability improves and service needs decrease. So far service has been over the internet updates with a tire rotation scheduled for a few months from now. My range is improved when I turn on the autonomous driving. Even now the computer does a much better job than me figuring VMG and I haven’t calculated a great circle course in decades. Figure autonomous ships will use less fuel or energy, need fewer (if any) crew so cheaper to run.
The transition is a done deal. Question is how long will it take. Which country will lead and which will follow. Who will get rich from the transition. At present we (the US) are lagging behind. Especially lagging behind China. I have further concerns whereas past republican presidents were strongly behind the revision of the law of the sea so American companies could be competitive in deep sea mining that has been resisted by the current incarnation of the party. Similarly at present autonomous boats, even research experimental craft like the Plymouth 400, are not permitted in US waters without specific waver and human piloted escort.
We are falling behind in ship, boat, car and truck tech. Becoming less cost effective than products made elsewhere.

 

[FWT]

There are idiots on the water I do wish they had autonomous piloting gear.

Might not be as safe as a pro, but safer than the idiot.

Autonomous cars will be a godsend for Grandma whose skills are declining. Even imperfect, they may well be safer than her.

 

[Jklotz]

There are idiots on the water I do wish they had autonomous piloting gear.

Might not be as safe as a pro, but safer than the idiot.

Autonomous cars will be a godsend for Grandma whose skills are declining. Even imperfect, they may well be safer than her.

Maybe, but keep in mind the whole "thing" about AI is it is constantly learning, not only from it's own experience, but from every other AI related device it has contact with. Over time, it will be safer than a pro, as it gathers data from every other pro and non pro. That's the idea anyway.

 

[Portage_Bay]

When that time comes I still won't turn my boat over to AI. Because I enjoy planning, navigating and boat handling. I'd be bored silly letting the robot do it all. May as well stay home and watch boating videos.

Maybe, but keep in mind the whole "thing" about AI is it is constantly learning, not only from it's own experience, but from every other AI related device it has contact with. Over time, it will be safer than a pro, as it gathers data from every other pro and non pro. That's the idea anyway.

 

[JustBob]

I want it to route plan where the most fish are and catch/clean them for me while underway.

 

[JP2]

At the least, half the fun is getting there.

 

[dannc]

With AIS and radar integration into chart plotters, controling the auto pilot, there really is only a few more pieces needed to have The System change course as needed to avoid other vessels or shallow water. Hopefully, one did not set a course into the hard bits but we know that happens.

What is missing, and surely has to be the hard part, is detecting vessels/objects NOT using AIS or showing up on radar, i.e., creating a Mark I eye ball. Of course a Mark II eye ball that can see in the dark would be even better.

The technology is sorta there with cameras that can "see" at night and already detect movement but also already recognize people, faces and animals. The hard part is detecting an object that is in moving water. Certainly, vessels on the horizon would be easy to distinguish.

It would seem that having this level of technology is already in existence it is just a matter of cost and the equipment and software being available to power boats. Though sailboats might have a problem with the required power to run such a system.

This sort of automation would really be handy for short handed crews.