Another repair screw up.

[mvweebles]

Amazingly, a year and a half after I fired Niza Marine for incompetence, I continue to find Easter Eggs of their total ineptitude.

It rained hard in Ensenada a few days ago. And I noticed a leak through two of the overhead lights on the hard top. Turns out the solar panels had been installed with zero caulk of any kind.

I need to rework the site, but I have pictures posted at [Mod Edit - link removed. PM OP if you want further info]. the old saying that a happy customer tells a friend. An unhappy one tells 10. With the internet, and despite the embarrassment, I hope to increase that 1000x to serve fair notice so others don't get snookered.

That said, the current guys are awesome. Boat should be launched in 2 weeks.

Peter
View attachment 134514

 

[cardude01]

Good grief! Thanks for the update and warning. This is why even though I’m not an expert at fixing most things on my boat, I always just try to do it myself.

 

[catalinajack]

Amazingly, a year and a half after I fired Niza Marine for incompetence, I continue to find Easter Eggs of their total ineptitude.

It rained hard in Ensenada a few days ago. And I noticed a leak through two of the overhead lights on the hard top. Turns out the solar panels had been installed with zero caulk of any kind.

I need to rework the site, but I have pictures posted at [Mod edit - link removed]. the old saying that a happy customer tells a friend. An unhappy one tells 10. With the internet, and despite the embarrassment, I hope to increase that 1000x to serve fair notice so others don't get snookered.

That said, the current guys are awesome. Boat should be launched in 2 weeks.

Peter View attachment 134510View attachment 134511
View attachment 134514

I experienced the same problem on our DeFever 44. When she came to us, a prior owner had drilled weep holes on the underside of our boat deck. Everytime it rained hard, brown water would drip from those holes. There had been dinghy chocks mounted topside. I had a yard remove the chocks. They glued, some sort of soft plastic rectantangles to cover the space, except they did not fill the bolt holes. They leaked. I removed the plastic, filled the bolt holes with epoxy, and repainted the boat deck. No more leaks.

 

[mvweebles]

At some point, I'll do a thorough write-up/postmortem on my experience. Not just the outcomes and screw-ups like this post, but things I did wrong. In short, I ignored a few early yellow flags; and there were some things that never occured to me such as how would the crew track inventory/parts; and where was their actual shop. These were incredibly important in a large refit.

I still struggle with whether the root cause of Niza Marine's horrible work was simple ignorance or just didn't care. I think a lot of it was lack of experience in boats depite their principal reportedly being a project manager for 10-years at Baja Naval, the largest boatyard in Ensenada (he lied about that experience - rumor has it he was fired for integrity issues). Don't get me wrong, I knew I wasn't signing-up for a premier service yard, and knew this was a large project for them. I just thought we'd take the ride together. It actually worked okay until Covid. I think Mario (Niza's principal) ran into financial problems and lost the last threads of reputation he had. Consequently, no one of quality would work for Niza. This was incredibly difficult to diagnose during Covid when I could not travel, and led to my firing them pretty quickly when they made some obviously dumb mistakes.

Attached is another picture the crew sent me yesterday of the backing plate for the SS supports, the plate atop the hardtop. There is no caulk/bonding between the plate and the top, just a smidged bead of silicon around the perimeter (amazingly, it appears to have held). Plus an errant hole; also not filled. I highlight this because I think this is were it goes from a guy bitching about being taken (sorry, hard to resist) to being instructive. Why would they do this? Easy answer is stupidity and carlessness - certainly shows a lack of pride in workmanship. But the longer answer goes to some of what I missed early-on. Niza does no thave a shop at the boatyard. Their workers work unsupervised. What that means is if they are tasked with, say, installing solar panels and they don't have bedding compound, by God they will install the solar panels without it. Because the average Mexican is fairly poor with low wages, its common to jury-rig repairs and do them over and over again - this is where having boat-related experience is key. You learn that doesn't always work in a marine environment.

Due diligence isn't just asking the right questions, but going a few steps further to validate if the means of production exist to deliver. Hope is not a strategy -

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

You bring up an important thing which is the difference in "norms" from country to country, or even local to local. In places where supplies and parts are limited or unavailable, you improvise. If that means the repair doesn't last, you do it again. It's the best you can do. That's how daily life operates, so it is expended to other work unless coached otherwise.



I saw something similar in Asia building two boats. Labor is cheap and plentiful, and non-Asian manufactured goods are expensive. So Asian parts get used, and lots of things that we would always go buy, they will make from scratch. Also, we tend to do things in a way that makes subsequent maintenance and repairs easier. Repair and maintenance labor for us is very expensive, so being able to get something done quickly is important. In an area with cheap labor, people will think nothing of having to take apart a few things to access something, and will happily put it all back together afterwards.


None of it is nefarious - it's just different, adapting to the environment and situation. And if you want things done differently, you need to watch and monitor VERY carefully. That's often easier said than done even without Covid. I can't even begin to count the conversations I've had with yards about doing something one way vs another, because they just don't understand why it matters or why one way is preferred over another. There has never been any animosity - just curiosity - and they have always been happy to accommodate once they understand.


Weebles, I feel for your situation. It's one thing to ask for minor changes here and there to how people do things, and something entirely different where you essentially need to coach them every step of the way. You expect people skilled in their trade unless you explicitly hired unskilled labor. Good on you for calling it sooner rather than later and getting out of there. Our instincts are often to stick it out, but in such a situation it never gets better. I don't think I've ever shut down or cut a project short and looked back and thought I was premature in doing so.

 

[mvweebles]

The biggest barrier for me was I had a vision of how the story should end and I was slow to accept diversion. In short, I believed what I wanted to believe.

I've long believed that one of the key differentiators of PAE/Nordhavn is their company was founded and led by guys who use their boats. I remember Jim Leishman preparing the N40 for the Round-the-World run and how he painstakingly worked on the fuel system design with burn-tank. At the time, Willard Marine was still in business and trying to make a go with their updated W40 PH. I casually knew some of the Willard folks - they were tremendously frustrated that the N40 was selling well, the W40 was not. In my opinion, Willard was only an average boat builder. They were good with fiberglass - at points in their history they stayed in business making cowlings that sit atop the cabs of OTR trucks. The guy who led their Trawler marketing was passionate about boats in a way that's familiar on TF, but had little practical experience. That's much different than PAE or Fleming (I'm sure there are others, I just don't know them).

About 6-months ago, I happened to have a couple beers with a guy with a Chris Craft Connie, 50-ish feet, Aluminum hull. Turns out he was having Niza work on the boat. I gave him the 'ghost of Christmas future' spiel which I'm sure sounded like a lover-scorned. Mario's playbook is to charm, then beg forgiveness (including crying when necessary). Mario will start a lot and finish nothing - I can't decide whether he's an "American Greed" con, or just inept; not that it makes much difference as the ending is the same. This guy was pursuaded and stuck with him too long and ran out of money.

Ironically, there's another aluminum Chris Craft with Niza right now. If anyone knows this Roamer from San Diego, you may want to give the owner a heads-up. The good news for the owner would be the boat is sitting 100-feet from Guillermo at LaCosta Boatworks, the guys finishing Weebles and doing a fine job.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

Based on the lack of bedding elsewhere, I had everything pulled. Nothing was bedded. Here are the handrail stanchions.

Niza Marine in Ensenada- the gift that keeps on giving. I can't figure out if they are incompetent or just don't care. Regardless, steer clear of them. Thankfully, the good folks at La Costa Boatworks have been great and have repaired many items.

BTW - there's an aluminum hull Chris Craft 55 Roamer "30,000 feet" with San Diego hailing port being worked on by Niza (see pics in previous post). If anyone knows the boat/owner, you may want to give them a heads-up to be very careful. They may want to have the boat surveyed before making payment.

Peter

 

[Xlantic]

That has been my experience. Now, any work I hire-out on my boat I try to closely supervise on a daily basis.

I also discuss and insist upon on the materials to use and how to do the work in great detail including surface preparation, sealing, priming, undercoat and finish. And, of course, bedding.

I don't think it is a matter of ineptitude or laziness. I think it is the fact that, short-term, doing the job well-done requires a great deal more time and effort and expensive materials while the results of shoddy work may not show up for many years. By then the workmen that did the work may not even work for the same company and the company may not feel responsible given the passage of time.

 

[garbler]

Inferior work and materials in a yard always comes from the top. The average yard worker is getting paid the same wage whether it’s done right or there are shortcuts. In the newer bigger yards there are project managers who are supposed to monitor work quality including hours and materials cost usually weekly. The good yards will provide the boat owner or his representative a printout of costs regularly unless it’s a simple firm priced job. If, as a owner you can’t get that information from the yard office then dig in. Beware of yards that are full of sun-contractors as disputes are a nightmare. If they can’t afford a competent crew then all they are doing is supplying a workspace for a piece of the action.

In older smaller yards there should be yard bosses that keeps an eye on work. I’ve worked in several such yards and I liked the set up. Owners would show up they could talk to the hands about the work ( many yards prohibit this ) and me and we’d try to keep the customer up to speed. But the problem comes when yards bid jobs and either don’t fully understand the scope of the work or have a nasty habit of low bidding then growing the job incrementally with job order changes. These change orders often come at the owner like boatyard blackmail —sign it or we stop work and charge storage etc.

I’ve worked in everything from yacht yards to shipyards from grunt, carpenter, painter and estimator. The game is the same. A yard with return business and a full book is not likely to underbid or close bid a job. A good estimator knows all too well that there are unseen surprises that can pop up on any job even the simplest. That material costs are a moving target and most of all should know the crew and what they are good at and how long they need. Unfortunately there are many yards, especially in Florida, that change hands often and are running a very tight accounting string so they need work and they’ll get it one way or the other. With so many new boat owners knocking on the door and without experience on what a job should cost or what it entails their first instinct is to get the best price and so they become the lawful prey of these yards. I might as well add that most of the time bad work doesn’t raise its ugly head until the boat and owner are long gone. That poor workmanship and or negligence is a tough very expensive proposition in court often in a juritiction along way from home.

Rick

 

[Insequent]

Work on my boat has only been done in the USA and in Australia, with me onsite 95% of the time and doing minor jobs at the same time. I remember while in the USA a guy with a boat alongside me saying how fortunate I was to be there all the time. His take was that at $1 per minute (and up!) the quick phone calls or chats to workmates and visitors add up to noticeable costs real fast.

I think that I ended up with higher productivity and less hours charged for the work as a result. Call it "Owner Supervision" even though I did not need to do anything that a Supervisor would do. The trick is not to be a dick, or stick your nose in. Just being there with your eyes open is all it takes.

The better yards these days forbid staff using their phones other that when on breaks, at which time they are almost glued to them! Social media pressures......

 

[jgwinks]

Good grief! Thanks for the update and warning. This is why even though I’m not an expert at fixing most things on my boat, I always just try to do it myself.

I never pay anyone to do something I can screw up myself. The pros will probably screw it up worse than I would.

 

[garbler]

I never pay anyone to do something I can screw up myself. The pros will probably screw it up worse than I would.

Sorry to hear this you sound like an owner who has some bad experiences. It may be local problem or just bad luck.

 

[SteveK]

Peter, my condolences.

I clicked on the link in post 1 twice and both times I saw a boat stripped down and ready for the start of a refit. But the words say it had been undergoing 30 months at this stage.

Any chance you can post pictures of finished work after 30 months?

If what you are showing is after 30 months then you must be elevated to sainthood for your patience in allowing work to progress over that period of time.

 

[mvweebles]

Peter, my condolences.

I clicked on the link in post 1 twice and both times I saw a boat stripped down and ready for the start of a refit. But the words say it had been undergoing 30 months at this stage.

Any chance you can post pictures of finished work after 30 months?

If what you are showing is after 30 months then you must be elevated to sainthood for your patience in allowing work to progress over that period of time.

TwistedTree recently posted his update of his trials/tribulations of repairing shipping damages. I suspect at least part of the delay was it just takes time to digest and process exactly what happened. I'm getting there - I'd like to update the bitch-and-moan website you clicked with something more productive and will at some point.

Poker players use a term "Pot Committed." I'm not a gambler ("gambler" implies winning from time to time, a pleasure I have avoided). Best I can tell, Pot Committed means you're so far into a hand that even though you're pretty sure you've lost, you keep playing and betting against all odds. Refits fit into that category. Suffice to say I'm no saint, just a bit of a pit bull.

The work had significant pauses along the way, Exhibit #1 was Covid. The big issue is I was unable to travel so relied on communications and pictures which would have been fine except for integrity issues that developed with Niza's principal Mario Herrera. And there is a downward spiral where you stop paying folks and they are trying to catch-up but without new money cannot afford to keep going. But I was able to glean enough to fire Niza Marine, but it took some time to unwind - Mexico is not my home turf of course.

Long way of saying that I will eventually re-do the website. There will be a much better section on what incompetent nitwits Mario and Niza Marine are; but also the story of the refit plus a better portrayal of lessons learned - what to look for when doing work in a foreign land (foreshadow: 316 SS is very difficult to source). It's all embarrassing to admit, but I decided that I wanted to give-back my experience, plus a modicum of vengence to warn folks away from Niza Marine.

Oh, I would be remiss if I didn't again mention how great the team at La Costa Boatworks (Guillermo Sarabia) have been. This is not ultra-fine craftsmanship from a Maine boatyard, but it is a solid 7 out of 10. And they don't cut corners.

Peter

 

[Peter B]

You bring up an important thing which is the difference in "norms" from country to country, or even local to local....I saw something similar in Asia building two boats. Labor is cheap and plentiful, and non-Asian manufactured goods are expensive. So Asian parts get used, and lots of things that we would always go buy, they will make from scratch. Also, we tend to do things in a way that makes subsequent maintenance and repairs easier. Repair and maintenance labor for us is very expensive, so being able to get something done quickly is important. In an area with cheap labor, people will think nothing of having to take apart a few things to access something, and will happily put it all back together afterwards....None of it is nefarious - it's just different, adapting to the environment and situation.... I can't even begin to count the conversations I've had with yards about doing something one way vs another, because they just don't understand why it matters or why one way is preferred over another.

Wow, Peter, you never said a truer word(s) than what I extracted above..!

Just think of the grief all of us later owners of the Taiwanese type trawlers would have been saved if only they had thought a bit ahead, worked out the inevitability of water tracking in through all those thousands of screw-holes where they fixed down the teak decking, and used a synthetic, non-water-absorbing type of core, or just glued the teak down, or better still - both - or like often now, avoiding teak altogether and making all the decks non-skid GRP..? But they did it the simpler, cheaper way, and for the looks rather than practicality, or considering the consequences, and didn't think that far ahead.

But when you consider all the huge issues that followed, with leaking fuel tanks, major tank replacement costs, rotten core, with horrible brown water stains, soft decking, water damage inside...one could go on...all probably avoided with just more thought to that bl**dy teak deck, the mind boggles.

 

[Datenight]

...


I saw something similar in Asia building two boats. Labor is cheap and plentiful, and non-Asian manufactured goods are expensive. So Asian parts get used, and lots of things that we would always go buy, they will make from scratch. Also, we tend to do things in a way that makes subsequent maintenance and repairs easier. Repair and maintenance labor for us is very expensive, so being able to get something done quickly is important. In an area with cheap labor, people will think nothing of having to take apart a few things to access something, and will happily put it all back together afterwards.
.

So true! Here are two shots of the original stern tube in the green boat. This boat was built in 1980 in Korea. The quality of the photos is not the greatest. The second shows the reason I was getting water in the bilge. Hard to tell in the photos but the tube is home made. It looks like glass was wrapped around a pipe to make it.

The cost of a replacement tube was around $60.00 from a fabricator in Connecticut in 2009ish. Clear example of inexpensive labor.

Rob

 

[garbler]

Back in the 80’s and early 90’s the surveying company I worked for kept running into soft dezincified thru hull fittings, seacocks, rudders etc. on imported Taiwanese trawler and sailboats. We had a test lab and my Wife who worked in a metallurgy lab test these fittings. Bottom line was they were not bronze at all but essentially 35-40% copper and the rest zinc so essentially brass. True Bronzes normally contain no more than around 9-12% zinc and this is added to the alloy for machining purposes. The stuff was junk and would dezinc to the point where they turn pinkish and can be carved with a pocket knife.

It took a while but the yards in Kaoshiung took some metallurgy classes and started to turn out low grade bronze fittings and I believe now actually use silicon bronze. When I started making trips to Kaoshiung to do new build inspections I ran into a British ex-pat working over there and Singapore and he informed me that Chang Iron had a yellow metal division that was just throwing all such metal into big vats, melted down and cast for yacht fittings. The problem.

One funny observation happened when I was in one fab shop where I actually saw a Taiwanese early drill press. It consisted of a man on all fours with a drill motor and padded breast plate and a small guy perched on his back for pressure. Incredible they turned out boats as well as they did.

Ted Hood built a yard in Taipei making high dollar ‘ Little Harbor ‘ CB cruising racing sail. The first two or three LH 44’s had serious fuel contamination issues enough to shut down engines. His designs had integral fuel tanks in the bilge but the yard couldn’t or wouldn’t build them 100% glass so they built the tops out of plywood then glassed them over. The fills, return, vents and supply lines were drilled through the plywood tops and eventually the plywood decomposed and fouled the fuel. Mr. Hood unlike many always stood by his boats and he paid yards ( wherever the boat was ) to rip things apart and do it right. Very costly

Rick

 

[Solo]

I learned early on ALL yard work has to be supervised by owner. No exceptions. Some yards may need a little bit less supervision than others but in the end if you are not "eyes on the job" you're going to be screwed.

 

[mvweebles]

I learned early on ALL yard work has to be supervised by owner. No exceptions. Some yards may need a little bit less supervision than others but in the end if you are not "eyes on the job" you're going to be screwed.

This strikes me as micromanagment. While i certainly understand the sentiment (especially given my experience), my reaction to this is you hired the wrong people. Plus, just not practical. And assumes i know more than the yard does which is sometimes true, sometimes not.

Peter

 

[Steve DAntonio]

If that is a cored structure, and it likely is, it would have needed more than just caulk, it would need to be closed out as well. See https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/TaskSheet189-Closeouts-05.pdf

 

[Steve DAntonio]

And on the subject of evaluating boat yards before and during repairs https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/cracking-the-code-part-i/

When readers or clients contact me and start to tell a tale of boat yard woe, I often say, "these are signs of systemic problems, no amount of interaction will fix this, cut your losses and get out now" and in almost every case they say, "but they are really nice people and they are trying" or "we don't want to make angry". As the saying goes, 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' It's a hard choice, but if you see many yellow or a few red flags, the best action is leaving.

 

[garbler]

In the past 20-30 years most large to mega yacht owners not only have full crews but also enlist the services of a QC Advisor-Inspector to be onsite at the yard during the entire service/repair evolution. These people are hired to protect the owner’s interests since few of them are able to step away from their businesses.

The good ones will oversee all work done, consult with equipment manufacturers and technicians, have the authority to represent the owners account and work orders within reason and approval of the principals or owners. They will review all billing for accuracy and conduct sea trials to assure satisfactory operation and completion. In Europe and here in the U.S. to a lesser degree they can get paid a % of the bill or by the hour plus living expenses and transportation. If I was younger and single I’d be in that business as it’s lucrative and interesting work. But you don’t come home until the work is done. The ones I known have a small two to four man crew they bring in when they need expertize with machinery, electrical-electronics and even interior decorators. Years ago you needed foreign language skills but these days English is so common it’s not as important. The job is not just nuts and bolts but demands diplomacy and a good understanding of local customs and work rules. This is especially important in SE Asia, Japan and China where causing a worker to lose face can shut down a job

Rick

 

[Rsysol]

Amazingly, a year and a half after I fired Niza Marine for incompetence, I continue to find Easter Eggs of their total ineptitude.

It rained hard in Ensenada a few days ago. And I noticed a leak through two of the overhead lights on the hard top. Turns out the solar panels had been installed with zero caulk of any kind.

I need to rework the site, but I have pictures posted at [mod edit - link removed]. the old saying that a happy customer tells a friend. An unhappy one tells 10. With the internet, and despite the embarrassment, I hope to increase that 1000x to serve fair notice so others don't get snookered.

That said, the current guys are awesome. Boat should be launched in 2 weeks.

Peter View attachment 134510View attachment 134511
View attachment 134514

Sorry to hear this, we used Niza for a significant amount of upgrades as well. I’d say we were 85% satisfied with the work considering it was also done during Covid. We also used the big yard during that time for a major hull repaint and my satisfaction level was much less. I also attributed this to Covid and the amount of staff turnover.

We’ve been cruising quite a bit since then with little issue regarding their work.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Back in the 80’s and early 90’s the surveying company I worked for kept running into soft dezincified thru hull fittings, seacocks, rudders etc. on imported Taiwanese trawler and sailboats. We had a test lab and my Wife who worked in a metallurgy lab test these fittings. Bottom line was they were not bronze at all but essentially 35-40% copper and the rest zinc so essentially brass. True Bronzes normally contain no more than around 9-12% zinc and this is added to the alloy for machining purposes. The stuff was junk and would dezinc to the point where they turn pinkish and can be carved with a pocket knife.

It took a while but the yards in Kaoshiung took some metallurgy classes and started to turn out low grade bronze fittings and I believe now actually use silicon bronze. When I started making trips to Kaoshiung to do new build inspections I ran into a British ex-pat working over there and Singapore and he informed me that Chang Iron had a yellow metal division that was just throwing all such metal into big vats, melted down and cast for yacht fittings. The problem.

One funny observation happened when I was in one fab shop where I actually saw a Taiwanese early drill press. It consisted of a man on all fours with a drill motor and padded breast plate and a small guy perched on his back for pressure. Incredible they turned out boats as well as they did.

Ted Hood built a yard in Taipei making high dollar ‘ Little Harbor ‘ CB cruising racing sail. The first two or three LH 44’s had serious fuel contamination issues enough to shut down engines. His designs had integral fuel tanks in the bilge but the yard couldn’t or wouldn’t build them 100% glass so they built the tops out of plywood then glassed them over. The fills, return, vents and supply lines were drilled through the plywood tops and eventually the plywood decomposed and fouled the fuel. Mr. Hood unlike many always stood by his boats and he paid yards ( wherever the boat was ) to rip things apart and do it right. Very costly

Rick

I have boat building horror stories from every boat building country I've ever visited and worked in. Taiwan gets a bad rap, but partially because they built so many boats, it's a law of averages issue to some extent. Today, some Taiwan builders build very high quality vessels, and some don't.

Interestingly, there is no Chinese word for "bronze", or "brass" it's all "yellow metal" so it's easy to see how this can go awry. Today in Taiwan they are pretty savvy to this issue, but I still run into issues in mainland China. However, a very well-known French boat builder used brass through hulls for years, relying on the vessel's bonding system and cathodic protection to prevent dezincification. That episode spawned the European DZR or dezincification resistant designation for underwater metals. Note, it is "resistant" not "proof" because these alloys still contain zinc. Copper alloy with up to 15% zinc is known as "leaded red brass". Typically, bronze contains no more than a trace amount of zinc, if any, no more than 3%.

More on brass vs. bronze here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/know-your-underwater-alloys/

And bonding https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/BondingSystems138_05.pdf

 

[Dwosky]

Former boater…….. lets leave it at that.

Forum members,
I want to thank you all for not fueling my desire to re- enter the world of cruising. After contemplating such, I subscribed to the forum “mid-Covid”. From stranded boaters in foreign lands, recommended cash slush funds for pesky safety inspections and now shoddy work at various domestic and foreign marinas, I have zero desire to enter the world of cruising. However, the romance of the high seas and allure of foreign ports of call still lurk in your postings and the far recesses of my brain. I’ll stay tuned for now.
Dave

 

[garbler]

Steve I concur with your statement regarding silicon bronzes and zinc percentages should be around 3% + - . Actually I don’t think it’s possible to dissolve much more than 4% silicon in copper. Of course there are several good bronzes suitable for various marine applications all of which are alloyed differently with copper, metals such as lead, aluminum tin etc. my statement above where I noted 9-13% zinc is technically incorrect. What I should have said in my statement above regarding allowable zinc percentages was copper with 3-4% silicon, 2-3% tin and 3-5% zinc or between 9-13% total alloying agents. By attempting to simplify my remarks I made it worse at least for you, not sure anybody else caught it.

However there is no shortage of silicon bronze, in name anyway, that doesn’t have close to 7-10% zinc and almost always for its machinability. Above the waterline these alloys serve a purpose and generally hold up well enough but like manganese bronze which is 60/40 copper and zinc it’s all about marketing. Try to find a true bronze propeller or rudder these days.

Below are two “ silicon bronze “ bolts certified by the USN for wooden Minesweeper construction. Both badly dezincified in fact I broke that big fin headed bolt in a vice with a pipe. Followup lab testing revealed apprx 8% zinc.

Rick

 

[mvweebles]

Sorry to hear this, we used Niza for a significant amount of upgrades as well. I’d say we were 85% satisfied with the work considering it was also done during Covid. We also used the big yard during that time for a major hull repaint and my satisfaction level was much less. I also attributed this to Covid and the amount of staff turnover.



We’ve been cruising quite a bit since then with little issue regarding their work.

I'm glad your experience was better than mine. Actually, for the first while, I was enthusiastic about Niza/Mario. However, Luis was the only knowledgeable boat person on the team and he essentially quit which was hidden from me. Mario, Luis, and I had an agreement that only Luis would work on Weebles - we even set a project plan with each task. Mario lied - turns out Luis was working somewhere else so he had other knuckleheads working on Weebles.

So Niza became a comedy of errors. Mario thinks he knows boats because he was employed at a boatyard for several years (I am told by several sources he was fired for integrity issues). But he has never actually done any work on boats, just filled out invoices for others who did the work. He has no idea what "good" looks like. Consequently, he has burned-through all competent labor in Ensenada so he has only day-workers.

The mechanic who worked on Weebles was clueless. For my hydraulic steering system, he installed standard fuel hose with hose clamps. For my potable water system, he installed bronze pipe fittings. I fired him.

The first electrician was okay, but he quit when Mario wanted him to work 4-hours here, 2-hours there instead of just knocking out the rewiring. So some Niza numbskull attempted the work. I provided a very comprehensive wiring diagram and schematic along with plenty of cable and wire. When Mario said he needed additional spool of 2/0 battery cable, I knew something was amiss - sure enough, instead of running the bow thruster to the 2xG31 AGMs 7-feet away as shown in the schematic, they ran cable 30+ feet to the house bank in the aft lazarette.

All of thr Niza bonehead stuff has been fixed. Mario admitted in email he owes me money but was unwilling to make good.

What still amazes me is even when caught in abject lies, he wouldn't admit it or apologize. These were really obvious lies like lying that he wasn't able to go to San Diego due to Covid and asked if I would go - the folks at San Diego Marine Exchange tell me he was there yesterday.

Randy, I'm glad you had a good experience with Mario/Niza. But I can almost guarantee any goodness you experienced was because Luis was there. He's long gone. Mario will tell you otherwise, but I can tell you that no one at the yard has seen Luis in years.

Mario is jammed-up for money. He is trying to portray himself as a full-service marine provider. Fake-it-till-you-make-it I suppose. He will do whatever it takes to fund his fantasy.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

When readers or clients contact me and start to tell a tale of boat yard woe, I often say, "these are signs of systemic problems, no amount of interaction will fix this, cut your losses and get out now" and in almost every case they say, "but they are really nice people and they are trying" or "we don't want to make angry".

Amen Steve. Spot-on. I will add that the moment you suspect a falsehood, time to bail.

8-months ago I met a guy with a 50-ish aluminum Chris Craft Constellation that Niza is working on. I was pretty blunt witb him about my experience - Niza starts a lot snd finishes notbing. He said he was having similar problems but he really liked Mario and was going to give him more time.

I bumped into the guy recently. In short, he's pretty bummed - hull paint looks like crap, nothing is finished. But he doesn't want to offend Mario too much so hasn't blown-up like I did. It's his money is all I can say.

For those reading this thread and think you're too sharp to allow this to happen to you, I hope you're right. Because if you attempt a major refit and you're wrong, well, you know. I've been candid with my experience even though it's embarrassing. I hope a few can learn from my experience. At the very least there's an internet breadcrumb trail on Niza Marine if anyone cares to search. They can toss out my words as a scored, angry customer, or they can heed the experience.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

I had a similar mini-version experience recently. Hauled at a yard with a long list of warranty project. All had been reviewed and discussed ad nauseam in the months leading up to the project. It was very clearly a haul, fix, launch project on a 2-3 week timeline. It was clearly NOT a "leave the boat until spring" project.



I arrived at the appointed time and nobody knew what was going on, what we were there for, etc. It was three days before anyone was even on the boat to go over the work, and once we did go over it it became clear that they were unprepared for any of it. No materials were on hand, and some had 5 week lead time.


Each day that went by I carved back the project scope. In the end, I left early with nothing but bottom paint and a re-bedded thruhull. And they had been told multiple times, in multiple written work orders that it was to be red bottom paint. But there they were stirring cans of black paint ready to go. Good thing I was around.


I do think it's important to be around when work is being done. The only exception if with well-known, proven people. It's not about managing how they do their work - I agree with Weebles that that would be micro managing, and that if required you have the wrong people. But I do think you need to be there to make sure things are on track, that the project is getting the time and attention is deserves, and to see first hand how work is progressing. I've seen too many boats sit while other squeaky wheels get worked on.

 

[Kit_L]

Thanks for that, Steve. Saved for the future.