Time for Lithium House

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The wiring looks fine. The batts are seven years old. When mine were 7 years old they were shot.

Not like dhays, the voltage (no load) was fine but no capacity or current left.
 
Could be a dead cell in each battery, or it could just be that the batteries have not been throughly enough charged over the years. This is one reason why lead batteries need a long absorb cycle, and some more than others. Are they by chance Rolls batteries? If they are flooded, an SG reading would tell you most everything.
 
What you are saying is that one of the 6V in each 12V battery pair was low? The wiring is as correct as can be done. In each pair, the same current has to go through each member of the series pair. So I'd say just a classic cell imbalance issue. Were these flooded, and did you ever equalize? The ones at 6.4V are normal, the ones at 4.3V are dead.
AGM. I did equalize but likely not as often as I should have.

Anyone want a couple decent L16 AGMs?
 
Could be a dead cell in each battery, or it could just be that the batteries have not been throughly enough charged over the years. This is one reason why lead batteries need a long absorb cycle, and some more than others. Are they by chance Rolls batteries? If they are flooded, an SG reading would tell you most everything.
They are USBatteries AGMs. They were charged according to USBatteries charging recomendations. Other than not being equalized as often as maybe they should be, they were charged well.
 
I still suspect dead cells. The voltage difference is the same and just about 2/3 cells working. Tall batts make it easier to happen, more vertical plate material to slough off and pile up at the bottom.

Yup, just another reason to do the LiFePO4 - :) My smile is because I'll never have to do the house bank again!

Those lead-acid starters on the other hand...
 
Stevek..

Thinking with whats left between my ears is being overly optimistic.

I have seen similar failures of AGM batteries.
One of my dockmates experienced the same kind of failure (the batteries where the load was connected on their positive terminal got killed) about 18 months ago.

Just thought someone in the TF world might have better insights.

Not to worry, LiFePO4 is in the throes of fixing this now.
 
@luna are you thinking a poor ground, as in not 100% clean connection?
I was wondering about the connections as well. However, when I disconnected the cables, they all looked great. I had connected them with No-Ox like I do all those connections. I didn't make the cables but had them made professionally, so I assume they were done well.

But, you never know. A bad cell in two of them would be the cleanest explanation. It makes me sad to recycle two of those L16s that appear to be in great shape. Even if I had a good use for them, to be honest after having just removed all four of them, I'm not sure I'm up for picking them up again. Each of them is 121lbs and I feel every one of those pounds now.
 
Dave, On my house batteries I have a shunt inline and negative grounds to engine and excetera. Multiple places away from battery on the way to bond with the alternator to complete a circuit. The positive from battery may have connection points between too, but this thought is about negative since two batts are charged.
I like a mystery, then again, it just may be a coincidence and really two dead cells.
 
I'm not sure what the theory would be on a bad connection. That should affect all cells. The same electrons have to go though the whole series chain. There is a one in two chance of it being that way just by chance (assuming two failed batteries).

You said you equalized them, and they were AGM. Most AGM manufacturers don't allow equalization (Lifeline is the exception, but even they have unusual requirements and say don't do it unless you really need to). I'm not familiar with USBatteries, do they recommend equalization?

I don't envy moving the L16. I have enough trouble with 6GC type, but probably have bought my last LA batteries a couple of years ago - next ones will be LiFePo4.
 
i make my lithium battery 4x 315 ah 1260 ah
battery metal box from china no name 200€ for 2x 315
EVE MB31 314Ah 16x 1299€
jkbms 200A 4x 80€
cable 300€

simarine integration 100€

nw must install
also, I think install extra 2 Poles Mccb to disconnect the battery
 
Cells just fail. When my L-16 batteries were old I tested every cell individually. I found two bad cells. By disconnecting those batteries from the system I was able to get more usage out of the bank. This was an emergency work around as I was transiting when I discovered my bank was depleting at an unordinary rate. Once home I changed out the L-16 for LiFePo4.
 
I'm not sure what the theory would be on a bad connection. That should affect all cells. The same electrons have to go though the whole series chain. There is a one in two chance of it being that way just by chance (assuming two failed batteries).

You said you equalized them, and they were AGM. Most AGM manufacturers don't allow equalization (Lifeline is the exception, but even they have unusual requirements and say don't do it unless you really need to). I'm not familiar with USBatteries, do they recommend equalization?

I don't envy moving the L16. I have enough trouble with 6GC type, but probably have bought my last LA batteries a couple of years ago - next ones will be LiFePo4.

Generally I agree that if there was a high resistance connection it should affect all of the cells in a common 12 V battery.
I'm not so sure that when a 12 V battery is constructed from 2, 6 V batteries that the external series connection (which happens in a 12 V battery inside the box) does not play a role in the early demise of one component used in this constructed 12 V battery.
That's why I asked if anybody knows?

I also am at odds, with your odds.
When you have 4 individual batteries and 2 fail, the possible battery combinations that failed include, Battery #1 & #2, or 1 & 3, or 1 & 4, or 2 & 3, or 2 & 4, and finally 3 & 4.
Randomly, thats 1 in 6 odds of picking any 2 particular batteries, not one in two.

My understanding is that US Battery does not make the AGM batteries that they market, label and sell as their own. Whatever equalization recommendation, if any, should ultimately come from the actual manufacturer, who may well have changed over time.
 
Cells just fail. When my L-16 batteries were old I tested every cell individually. I found two bad cells. By disconnecting those batteries from the system I was able to get more usage out of the bank. This was an emergency work around as I was transiting when I discovered my bank was depleting at an unordinary rate. Once home I changed out the L-16 for LiFePo4.
That sure sounds like my situation. I really hate to scrap two L16s that seem good, but I don't have a good use for them. I'll get somewhere between 12¢ and 50¢ a pound for them. I'll find out in about an hour.
 
Generally I agree that if there was a high resistance connection it should affect all of the cells in a common 12 V battery.
I'm not so sure that when a 12 V battery is constructed from 2, 6 V batteries that the external series connection (which happens in a 12 V battery inside the box) does not play a role in the early demise of one component used in this constructed 12 V battery.
That's why I asked if anybody knows?
Even a 6V battery is made from three 2V cells internally connected. A 12V from six cells, really doesn't matter if the cells are in the same box or not.
I also am at odds, with your odds.
When you have 4 individual batteries and 2 fail, the possible battery combinations that failed include, Battery #1 & #2, or 1 & 3, or 1 & 4, or 2 & 3, or 2 & 4, and finally 3 & 4.
Randomly, thats 1 in 6 odds of picking any 2 particular batteries, not one in two.
The odds depend on what you consider a repeat. In a 2S2P configuration, there are 4 possibilities of one in each 2S string going bad. However one high side and one low side can happen two ways and I'd consider that a repeat, so 2 in 4 or 1 in 2.
 
Personnaly I decided more batteries is better adding up to the total Ah chosen. So I have 8-100Ah each with their own BMS and all communicating with each other.
But this is about Epoch 460Ah batteries, in this case perhaps 2 batteries.
Victron is often mentioned here and I was surprised when Kevin posted an Epoch that did not need Victron communication. Then I found THIS where Panbo does an update report on the Epoch 460 after actual use since the beginning of the year.
The Panbo update applies to all types of LifePO4 as to rapid charging high current charging causing something called Lithium Dendrite

These batteries are evolving and changing before the several year ones have been put to the test to prove the original claims.
LFP is great, the recharging of them should be part of the planning process.
It cannot be stated strong enough the importance of reboust BMS, with preference for battery system being fully managed rather than self managed LFP.
Be careful with any cheaper product especially in LiPoFe4, if you are DIY without correct knowledge and tech install skills stay with lead.
 
I don't think I'd ever again get another good nights sleep if I installed lithium batteries.

 
I don't think I'd ever again get another good nights sleep if I installed lithium batteries.
Repeat after me. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (which are the kind used as house batteries in a boat) are not the same lithium batteries you find in a cell phone, power tools, etc. LFP doesn't have the same concerns around thermal runaway, etc.
 
My Thruster bank was able to be resurrected. My house bank OTOH, just isn't recovering from my recent power outage at the dock and the resulting deep discharge of my 4 x L16 6V house batteries. They are 7 years old. As soon as I shut off the charger today when I was down on the boat, that bank dropped to 11.9v within a few minutes without any load on the bank.

So I want to replace it with Lithium. The question come as to what battery to use.
I trust CMS's opinions and he likes Epoch. They do have a nice 460AH battery but they are relatively expensive.

For less expensive options Rod likes some of the Vatrer or LiTime batteries for a cheaper option. Both Vatrer and Litime have a 460AH battery. Neither of those has internal heating. However, while we do get cold here, normally the boat never gets below freezing and I do have some low heat in the space where the the batteries are kept to keep it above freezing. So I'm not sure if that is an issue or not. I don't want to cheap out on these batteries, partly because the technology is new to me. At the same time, the Vatrer or Litime batteries are $1200 each. The Epoch are $1800 each, half again as much! I know a number of you have already done this, any recommendations?

Do folks normally put lithium batteries in boxes? I like having my current batteries in boxes because the space they are in serves as a major storage space for all kinds of gear. It is nice having the batteries protected.
This is somewhat of a complicated subject. BUT DEFINETLY WORTH LOOKING INTO. Replace your old lead batteries with new ones. Say 210 amp 6 volt. Add a lithium battery in parallel with a Battery Bank Manager between the two different battery chemistries.
All loads will still come of your lead acid battery. Leaving the Lead acid battery in place protects your alternator. The Battery Bank Manager protects and controls the charging and discharging of the lithium battery. The end result is Your Lead acid (I would recommend AGM) supplies power to everything. The lithium battery replenishes the AGM. A 200 ah lithium battery can supply nearly all of its 200 amp and recharges 5 times faster. The AGM is never deeply discharged so its life is greatly extended.
For more insight go to emilyandclarksadventure. Many excellent videos.
 
Repeat after me. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (which are the kind used as house batteries in a boat) are not the same lithium batteries you find in a cell phone, power tools, etc. LFP doesn't have the same concerns around thermal runaway, etc.
 
This is somewhat of a complicated subject. BUT DEFINETLY WORTH LOOKING INTO. Replace your old lead batteries with new ones. Say 210 amp 6 volt. Add a lithium battery in parallel with a Battery Bank Manager between the two different battery chemistries.
All loads will still come of your lead acid battery. Leaving the Lead acid battery in place protects your alternator. The Battery Bank Manager protects and controls the charging and discharging of the lithium battery. The end result is Your Lead acid (I would recommend AGM) supplies power to everything. The lithium battery replenishes the AGM. A 200 ah lithium battery can supply nearly all of its 200 amp and recharges 5 times faster. The AGM is never deeply discharged so its life is greatly extended.
For more insight go to emilyandclarksadventure. Many excellent videos.
No. You want LFP to be THE house battery as it can be discharged up to100% (preferrably 80% down to 20% SOC) and lead is 50% SOC. But lead quick recharge tops up to about 80% which means you have 30% of the Ah available to use between charges.
 
@richardshulman Lots of ways to approach it for sure. What I decided to do is this.
  • Replace house AGM bank with 2 x 460Ah LiFePO4 12v batteries.
  • Inverter/Charger and solar MMPT controller will charge the LiFePO4 bank directly.
  • Alternator will feed thruster AGM bank.
  • Victron Orion XS DC-DC 50amp charger will charge LiFePO4 house bank from thruster bank when engine is running. I have a relay triggered by the engine start battery solenoid circuit that turns on the Orion when that circuit is activated.
  • Xantrex Echo Charge will charge the engine start bank from the the thruster bank when the thruster bank is over 13v.
  • Just because the above wasn't convoluted enough, I also have a Balmar Digital Duo-Charge DC-DC charger that can charge the thruster bank from the house bank when the engine isn't running if desired. This is to restore any self discharge if the boat hasn't been run for months.
Other than the ORion XS, the above is kludged together from components that I already had.

I'm waiting on delivery of the LiFePO4 batteries now and am working on how I'm going to wire the new bank up.
 
@richardshulman Lots of ways to approach it for sure. What I decided to do is this.
  • Replace house AGM bank with 2 x 460Ah LiFePO4 12v batteries.
  • Inverter/Charger and solar MMPT controller will charge the LiFePO4 bank directly.
  • Alternator will feed thruster AGM bank.
  • Victron Orion XS DC-DC 50amp charger will charge LiFePO4 house bank from thruster bank when engine is running. I have a relay triggered by the engine start battery solenoid circuit that turns on the Orion when that circuit is activated.
  • Xantrex Echo Charge will charge the engine start bank from the the thruster bank when the thruster bank is over 13v.
  • Just because the above wasn't convoluted enough, I also have a Balmar Digital Duo-Charge DC-DC charger that can charge the thruster bank from the house bank when the engine isn't running if desired. This is to restore any self discharge if the boat hasn't been run for months.
Other than the ORion XS, the above is kludged together from components that I already had.

I'm waiting on delivery of the LiFePO4 batteries now and am working on how I'm going to wire the new bank up.


We have a winner here! Good job.




To the other nay sayer comments.

No one is suggesting you should buy the cheapest Amazon LFP battery. All the LFP batteries recommend on trawler forum come with robust BMS’s built in.

ABYC admitted that they were unable to get a LFP bank to catch fire no matter how badly they abused it. All the talk of LFP being unsafe and fire prone is conjured up in the minds of the uneducated who see lithium batteries in non boating products catch fire with out knowing anything about various lithium chemistry.

Now, if someone suggest you take a Tesla battery bank and install it on your boat, be very very afraid.

If some one suggest you can drop in LFP for lead, do the research, most likely you can with a few minor adjustments. Most likely does not mean you can just do it and hope for the best.
 
Yup, it's not that hard to grasp. Do the research, learn the truth and eschew the fear. Think logically, like Spock and not emotionally like "lithium batteries go up in smoke" Always remember that bad news is good.
 
@richardshulman Lots of ways to approach it for sure. What I decided to do is this.
  • Replace house AGM bank with 2 x 460Ah LiFePO4 12v batteries.
  • Inverter/Charger and solar MMPT controller will charge the LiFePO4 bank directly.
  • Alternator will feed thruster AGM bank.
  • Victron Orion XS DC-DC 50amp charger will charge LiFePO4 house bank from thruster bank when engine is running. I have a relay triggered by the engine start battery solenoid circuit that turns on the Orion when that circuit is activated.
  • Xantrex Echo Charge will charge the engine start bank from the the thruster bank when the thruster bank is over 13v.
  • Just because the above wasn't convoluted enough, I also have a Balmar Digital Duo-Charge DC-DC charger that can charge the thruster bank from the house bank when the engine isn't running if desired. This is to restore any self discharge if the boat hasn't been run for months.
Other than the ORion XS, the above is kludged together from components that I already had.

I'm waiting on delivery of the LiFePO4 batteries now and am working on how I'm going to wire the new bank up.
Dave, all good.
The only weak point is charging the lfp. 50A in from DC2DC AND SOME PV cannot be enough IMO. what I see is one 460 battery getting charged. But I do not know all your loads.
I have 800Ah and use 400 in 24 hours. With no load 50A would take 4 hours of engine run time, but you will have some load, so maybe 5-6 hours. Will you be traveling that much each day.

Did I miss a charger?
 
Li Time was the way to go for me. I installed two Li Time 460Ah 12-volt batteries.
First, LFP batteries are constantly improving and change. It used to be Battleborn, then Epoch, now LiTime, although some of the new Epoch batteries do have Victron communications but I don't have any Victron products on my boat.

The reason I went with Li Time is the IP waterproof rating. The basic Epoch is NOT waterproof whereas the LiTime is. Check the IP rating of any lithium battery you are considering. Our application was in a room where there are water appliances like water heater, sea stainers and plumbing present.

Li Time also makes all the other parts needed like a variety of DC to DC chargers.
 
Could it be that there is a typo or a miscalculation in the statement shown below?


I have 800Ah and use 400 in 24 hours. With no load 50A would take 4 hours of engine run time, but you will have some load, so maybe 5-6 hours. Will you be traveling that much each day.

dhays, you may want to reconsider your alternator output circuit.

Consider the typical PNW cruiser who spent the night on the hook and in the morning has his LFP house bank depleted by Steve's 400 Ah's or more. 500-600 Ahs is common overnight on my power hungry ride.

With your described circuits in place, you start the engine and your new 28SI pours it's guts into the thruster bank only, as that's all it's directly connected to.
This helps in bringing the anchor aboard and then while underway at some point (usually not too long) the DC2DC connects the now charged thruster bank to the depleted house bank.

Your new 160A 28SI is loafing along with only an output of 50 A, (thruster bank is full) all of which goes to to the LFP house bank via the 50 A DC2DC. At 50 A, let's just say it will take 8 hours (your house loads are zero) to charge the battery bank that is depleted by 400 Ahs.
Other than possibly a short burst of current into the thruster bank now and again, 50 A of load is all that this 160 A rated alternator will ever see.
Your new 28SI should last a long time as it will likely never overheat with these loads.

The DC2DC on the other hand, is running flat out most of the time.

At some point along this 8 hour charge duration the LFP house bank will get to 13.0 V and then and only then will the Xantrex Echo Charger start to charge the engine start bank.
Up until this point in time the engine start bank has started the engine, ran the intake air heater (if still enabled or equipped) and supplied the engine run loads, which DDW upthread says on his QSB are about 20 Amps, without any charge what so ever.
Even when the Echo Charger engages, it can only supply 15 A, so the engine start bank is still going backwards by 5 A.

So, the question is, do you think your engine start bank can supply all the loads it is asked to supply without seeing a 15 A charge for however long it takes, at a 50 A charge rate, to get your depleted house bank to 13.0 V? For one night, maybe, what about 2 or 3 nights in a row?
If you think it will, then you need to ask yourself, will your instrumentation warn you of a short term low battery condition causing multiple annoying resets, like DDW experienced?

Engine start banks in my world take priority, perhaps that is one reason alternators come connected to them directly, 99% of the time.
 
Li Time was the way to go for me. I installed two Li Time 460Ah 12-volt batteries.
First, LFP batteries are constantly improving and change. It used to be Battleborn, then Epoch, now LiTime, although some of the new Epoch batteries do have Victron communications but I don't have any Victron products on my boat.

The reason I went with Li Time is the IP waterproof rating. The basic Epoch is NOT waterproof whereas the LiTime is. Check the IP rating of any lithium battery you are considering. Our application was in a room where there are water appliances like water heater, sea stainers and plumbing present.

Li Time also makes all the other parts needed like a variety of DC to DC chargers.
Neither the Epoch Essentials IP54 nor the Li time 460 IP65 are waterproof. Both have a level of "splash resistance". Both cases are likely assembled in the same way and I doubt there is any real world difference between them. The only case in these brands that is claimed to be waterproof (really just water resistant) is the Epoch 460 marine with IP67. And it shows that this is likely in the engineering, with recessed, gasketed mating surfaces and a one way vent valve and waterproof bungs. Even then its only waterproof to 1 meter for 30 minutes. And I would NEVER test that..lol.

Ill tell you a story regarding Epoch Marine batteries and waterproofing..lol. It also deals with their warranty. There was one individual who used the Epoch 12v 100ah Marine battery in his off road side by side. He was running it off road and underwater high speed through mud pits with his intake snorkel attached to the side by side to ford the deeper bodies of water. It eventually had an issue. The cover was taken apart at the request of warranty and photos were sent in. It had water and mud inside and was clearly abused to no end..lol. The customer was claiming warranty because he said that battery should be waterproof. Epoch sent him a new one anyways.
 
Dhays, it depends a bit on your use habits. When we are using the boat, it is typically a night at anchor followed by a 4 - 8 hour engine run. Occasionally two nights at anchor, very rarely 3. Occasionally a night in a marina but we never plug in, treat it as another night at anchor from the DC power point of view.

In that usage scenario you want as much charge as you can get from the alternator going to the house bank. The engine start battery will never get below 99% SOC unless you have a starting problem, or frequently hold your finger on the thruster button for many minutes at a time. Starting a QSB should take about 1 AH, 10 thruster applications of 2 seconds each to dock is perhaps 3 AH. (More than that argues for some lessons in docking :)). The only real load on the engine start battery is the engine electronics and alternator field current, something like 15A on my boat. Putting a 50A limit on current from the alternator to the house bank is a serious limitation for me.

Against this is the need to provide a place to dump the alternator dynamic energy in the rare event of an LFP disconnect. This is why you still want constantly connected AGMs in the mix.

I think the way I am going to approach this is to run the alternator output through a Victron Argofet isolator, feeding the house and start batteries. Very little current will go to the start side, enough to replenish the 1 AH I used to start, and keep the 15A load fed (unless for some reason the start bank is run down). Most of the current will go to the LFP house bank. In the event of a BMS cutoff, the energy can be absorbed by the AGM start bank for the few hundred millisecond transient.

There are two problems with this scheme for me. One is that the voltage regulation has to be set for LFP, this is less than ideal for AGM but really not that bad. It may result in a slightly shorter life for them but probably no real difference. Second problem is, my current setup has a BlueSea relay connecting the house and start during alternator charging. This works poorly for a few technical reasons, but having the two banks connected allows the house battery to share the load when the thruster is used, so that the engine does not see much of a voltage sag. Not a problem with a really huge start bank, but I have only two G24, perfectly adequate to start the engine but can sag a bit under the 500A load of the thruster. With the two banks isolated by the Argofet, the house cannot contribute to the thruster.

I think my solution is going to be, change the function of the BlueSea relay to simply be on when the ignition is on, shorting the outputs of the Argofet together and cross connecting the battery banks anytime the engine (and alternator) is running. This recovers the load sharing, eliminates the (very small) voltage drop across the Argofet and is very simple to implement. In fact the relay is wired that way now, due to the voltage settings of the relay, which do not work with Lifeline AGMs.

Why not just use the relay and forget the Argofet? That accomplishes the same things, in that the alternator load can be dumped to the AGMs whenever the alternator is running. But it assumes the relay always does what it is supposed to. It is probably as reliable as the Argofet, but together there is a redundant failsafe path (and also a new point of failure, the Argofet).

Conceptually, you could connect the alternator to the LFP house, and use a DC-DC to charge the engine. This would require only a small DC-DC as the load is small. My sailboat is set up exactly this way (all AGM but house is 24V and engine is 12V). But it depends on the transient response of the DC-DC compared to that of the alternator regulator, to protect against a BMS disconnect, and that may well be inadequate, no manufacturer seems to publish it.

For you do to what I plan to, you'd need an Argofet rather than the Orion, but you would also have to change the alternator regulator to external, because it would be required to regulate for LFP, the Orion is not there to do that function.

If your use is anything like mine, I think it would be far more satisfactory. The fast charge capability of the LFP is useless, without a fast charge source.
 
Dave, all good.
The only weak point is charging the lfp. 50A in from DC2DC AND SOME PV cannot be enough IMO. what I see is one 460 battery getting charged. But I do not know all your loads.
I have 800Ah and use 400 in 24 hours. With no load 50A would take 4 hours of engine run time, but you will have some load, so maybe 5-6 hours. Will you be traveling that much each day.

Did I miss a charger?
The Inverter/charger and the solar are both charging the house bank. So while at the dock or running the generator there is more than enough amps to charge the LiFePO4 batteries. 125 amps from the Magnasine and max of 30amps from the solar.
You are correct that when not on shore power and not running the genset, I'm limited to just the solar (max of 30amps) and when the engine is running I'm limited to what I can get from the Orion DC-DC charger. I don't yet know how much that will actually be. I doubt that I will get the full 50amps from it given my 160amp dumb stock alternator.
So when when cruising and on the hook I expect to run a Ah deficit. However, when at a dock with shore power, that deficit will be made up very quickly. Even if I drew the 920Ah bank (if I ever get the batteries) down to 30% SOC, that would be back to 100% after 6 hours at the dock.
 

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