Wood Trawlers and Yard lifts

[CDreamer]

Greetings all;
I know there are many earlier discussions about the realities of wood trawlers. I don't have a Loop boat yet, but will begin seriously looking next year. I'm familiar with the challenges and added maintenance of wood hulls...for the right price (probably cash) a sound wooden hull offers a lot. Obviously the survey is hyper-critical, by the right person.

BUT...I'm wondering about heavy wood hulls when being hauled, cradled or in the case of the Big Chute Railway lift on the Trent-Severn.

The yards in the PNW or in the far Northeast would have a lot of experience with wood, but I'm in Texas where 'glas is about the only hull material.

What are your thoughts on this specific issue?

 

[O C Diver]

A lot will depend on the railway and the hull. Depending on the hull and its strength the yard I use will either support the hull with 2 or 4 slings. If you buy a wood hull, you want to know its strength, how it needs to be supported in the slings (and where), and don't let it be hauled without you present.

Ted

 

[bgillroy]

Some yards no longer lift wooden boats. Liability issue. Wooden hull survey expertise experience is critical. Find Nams or Sams surveyor who knows how to survey wood and knows what they are looking at. GL.

 

[JDCAVE]

Yards have been hauling out wood boats since ancient Egypt, if not before. I can’t imagine why it would be any different now. Prior to purchase agreement, find a good shipwright and ask his advice before you advance to survey stage.

 

[jjorgenson3]

We haven’t had any issues with our wood hull. Previous owner took care very well. Have had know issues for hauling and surveys.

 

[Comodave]

There are marinas that will not rent slips to wooden boats or even haul them. They are afraid they will crack during a haul out and worried that they will deteriorate at the slip and the owner leave the boat there and then the marina will be stuck with it to deal with. Like it or not that is the way it is and it is going.

 

[Lepke]

My 83' 1942 wood hull lifts out ok with 4 slings. But I prefer a railway.

 

[jungpeter]

Hi CDreamer,

Good question regarding the Big Chute railway lift. From observation, it appears the lift has multiple slings, which is a good thing, IF your boat fits what appear to be fixed-spacing slings. However, as others have noted before me, hoisting a wooden hull is problematic in a boatyard, and perhaps VERY problematic in something like the Big Chute.

Most boatyards that deal with wooden hulls have travelifts with multiple, variable-span slings. These are spaced along the hull to minimize hogging or sagging, and minimize stress concentrations from the slings. Inadequate numbers of, or improper spacing of hoisting slings can lead to cracked frames, sprung planks, and other uglies. The yards that haul wooden boats with travelifts are VERY mindful of these issues.

Yards that use railways (fewer and fewer these days) have less issues, as the hull is evenly supported along the keel upon haulout. Ditto with tidal grids.

I'd be surprised if the Big Chute operators are equally knowledgeable, mindful, and careful.

Having said that, it's obvious that the Big Chute has been in operation for many years, and equally obviously has hauled many, many wooden boats of various persuasions. My guess is you pays your money, and you takes your chances.

And regarding wooden construction in general, there are no free lunches. The cheapest boat you can buy will likely be the most expensive boat you can own. Cash and Dr. Death for a surveyor be damned.

Regards,

Pete

 

[markpierce]

Definitely no problem with a steel hull.

 

[eagle419]

I think it's wise to keep this haul out issue verymuch in mind with wooden boats, and it depends on hull construction and condition.

My hull is built like the proverbial brick outhouse with Iron Bark, a very dense timber (1105 kg/m3) displacing 40 tonnes and she has a hefty iron keel girder from bow to stern, so I'm ok with hauling out via a lift crane. I know of others who aren't.

It also helps if the yard can use more than 4 lifting straps per side and positions them carefully. It's sensible to always be present at the liftout to make sure this happens.

I don't have any issues (so far) with the boat's insurance, and I'm assuming that the yard's liability policy doesn't have any exclusions.

P.S. I've just seen what jungpeter has written - I concur.

 

[Jeff F]

I wouldn't worry about Big Chute. They've been transporting big wooden boats for a long time. I've been through a couple of times and have spent lots of time there watching and chatting with the operators. They know what they're doing and have equipment to handle just about anything IMO. It is a marine railway, and they can put the keel on the platform and just use straps to stabilize.

It's a really interesting machine, especially the dual track system to keep the platform level on the escarpment.

 

[Comodave]

Big Chute sets the boat on the keel, the straps are just to hold it upright.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Another thing re wood boat for the OP.
His world is fresh water country and hull rot is far more prevalent than in salt water. The salt in the water is a great preservative. Here in the NW and up in Alaska mostly the only wood that rots is decks, cabin tops and other wood exposed to fresh rain water.

So hulls in fresh water are much more likely to be weak or rotten from water damage.

And very importantly the travel lift sling compresses the hull in the vicinity of the WL ... not an ideal way to raise/lift a boat. Ideally a travel lift would lift a big flat grid stiff enough and strong that would remain flat during operation. Never seen that done and I’m assuming because the grid would at least double the amount of weight the lift would need to lift.

As to the weight of wood boats it varies from much heavier than a FG boat to somewhat lighter. The lighter boats would be mostly plywood. They are very strong and light. Hard to build a FG boat as light as a plywood boat.
But a heavily built planked wood boat is anything but light if her hull is soaked up or saturated with excessive water due to lack of caulking, paint and maintenance.

So a wood boat may not to probably isn’t a good option in places like Texas. To the OP I’d look around in local boat yards. See if there are wood boats there and inquire about how they lift wood boats.
Another option is to build a plywood boat. Many old plans are available and have very wide ranges of construction difficulty. It’s not hard to find beginner lever plans. Most planked boats are too difficult for those w/o boat building experience.

 

[Rufus]

Many places on the Great Lakes will haul the boat from the basin with a travel lift and then place it on a hydraulic trailer to move it to the location where it is blocked. Some of these trailers lift via hydraulically powered pads that press against the outer edges of the hull instead of lifting and transporting with the weight supported by the keel. Be aware! These pad lift trailers are known to have caused structural damage to hulls. I'm aware of at least one punch through on a 39' Sea Ray, and I know several owners who believe their hulls have been warped by these contraptions. Cored fiberglass hulls are especially susceptible to crushed cores (which is not obvious from a visual inspection). I'd think a wooden boat would have many unique vulnerabilities with relatively small pads pushing against ribs, for example. I have banned our yard from using their pad lift trailer to move our solid fiberglass hull boat....which they dislike immensely. Be careful and ask how they will move your boat from place to place.

 

[jjorgenson3]

Definitely agree of not using the power pads. Forgot to mention when hauling we use two forward slings and two rear slings jus ahead of the running gear. You usually have to ask them to put the extra slings in prior to the hauling out. Good to have the water tanks mostly empty as well. All good stuff and asking local folks leads you to the right people that care greatly for your wood boat.

 

[Simi 60]

8 strap 300 tonne lift for us.
With some pressure we get it for the same price as competitors 75 tonne 4 strapper.

 

[bayview]

Refloating is also an issue as many yards don't have personnel or equipment to wait for a wood hull to swell up.

A nice woody was lost here not long ago after a relaunch because it sank while unattended. There may be yards that have employees with wood boat experience but the typical employee has never seen a wood boat.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Simi 60,
However many straps used there still is X amount of side pressure exerted on the hull. Helps a bit to spread it out some but the same compression force is applied to the hull at approximately the WL.

And obviously the best way to support a boat is floating in water. Even a marine railway is far inferior to water.

 

[Rufus]

Hi CDreamer,

Good question regarding the Big Chute railway lift. From observation, it appears the lift has multiple slings, which is a good thing, IF your boat fits what appear to be fixed-spacing slings. However, as others have noted before me, hoisting a wooden hull is problematic in a boatyard, and perhaps VERY problematic in something like the Big Chute.

Regards,

Pete

Where does one get specific information about the lift system at Big Chute. I'm especially interested in the observation regarding fixed spacing slings. Are there multiple slings under the hull when lifted or just one forward and one aft? Or does the boat actually lift via the keel with the straps only stabilizing?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. R. Perhaps you can get specific information here: https://www.pc.gc.ca/en/lhn-nhs/on/trentsevern
We've been through the system but other than the apparent SHEER drop while locking down at Big Chute, I remember little about the mechanics or geometry...



Phone #'s and e-mail...

 

[Rufus]

Definitely agree of not using the power pads. Forgot to mention when hauling we use two forward slings and two rear slings jus ahead of the running gear. You usually have to ask them to put the extra slings in prior to the hauling out. Good to have the water tanks mostly empty as well. All good stuff and asking local folks leads you to the right people that care greatly for your wood boat.

In my experience the crew operating hydraulic lift trailers are not well trained. The devices are fairly simple and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work them....which is precisely what makes them dangerous to the boat. When I asked a crew chief using a nominal 35 foot trailer to haul a 48 Viking motor yacht into a storage building, the crew lead said the trailer is "rated" at 60,000 pounds and the literature says a 48 MY weighs 48,500 (this one weighed far more). I said..."but it's hanging 15-20 feet off the back of the trailer with no support for the aft third of the hull....the aft pads are right about where the engines are located..." He turned beet red and refused to answer. Viking would have had a conniption fit. Time is money for these yards, and their level of experience has nothing to do with it.

 

[Simi 60]

Simi 60,
However many straps used there still is X amount of side pressure exerted on the hull. Helps a bit to spread it out some but the same compression force is applied to the hull at approximately the WL.

.

Can't imagine it would be much given the angles seen here.

 

[Comodave]

In the Big Chute when we went through a couple of years ago, the keel sat in the railroad car and they used 2 slings to hold the boat from tipping. Dont remember if the slings moved for and aft or not but they did ask where we had slings placed when we hauled. The 2 slings they used were close to our sling marks. I am sure they are used to doing wooden boats as well as glass boats.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Can't imagine it would be much given the angles seen here.

Yes I agree fully.
That’s a very wide travel lift.
At first it looked like your midship chines had a bit of tumblehome but they are just pointy cheeks. Like the long straight keel. Nice efficient hull .. IMO

 

[boatpoker]

Big Chute should not be an issue however, if you need a haulout in the great Lakes you may find it difficult to get lifted. Many marinas no longer accept wooden boats and quite a few won't lift them. I've witnessed two hulls collapsing in travel lift slings and two more distort so much that the lift crew refused to put them back in the water after a survey haul.

I stopped surveying wooden boats after surveying a 38' Pacemaker some years back. I started at 0630 and ran out of note paper well after dark. It then took another 10 hours to write the report. No one wants to pay for the 22hrs it takes to survey a 38' wooden boat properly. No owner want to allow fasteners to be pulled for proper inspection. I'll stick to steel, aluminium and plastic.

 

[LowNSlow77]

You wouldn't think that hauling wood boats would be an issue but it seems that the guys doing the work now have no idea about what they are doing and can do enormous damage to a boat. Just down the dock from me is a fellow with a gorgeous Bill Garden Wanderer class that was in beautiful shape. Unfortunately over the winter the boat yard doing the haul twisted the boat and the insurance company wrote it off.

Have to make sure the yard knows what to do before putting anything in their hands.

 

[Nomad Willy]

LowNSlow77,
I think it’s that the boats are getting older and older. And fewer and fewer are being maintained properly. So more and more mishaps will happen.
Also a old wood boat has lots of weak spots like right in the middle between two ribs or frames at a sharp turn of the bilge. As a complete structure they seem very strong as in hours and hours of smashing into head seas. But the straps find weak spots and the hydraulic pads can put very high pressure on the hull. The machine can lift the whole boat right up lifting only the pads in the bilge area and a FG boat can easily be damaged by a non skillful and uninformed operator. The pads are just to keep the boat from tipping over so very little force/pressure is needed. But a flick of the wrist by the operator can probably damage any boat.

 

[PM]

Amen to Rufus!! My yard prefers not to use the trailer on trawlers my size (36). There are 2 bulkheads but although my hull is heavy and non-cored they feel the trailer can crush a hull. They did use the trailer on mine one year when I wanted inside storage but they only moved it about 20 feet and very carefully. Note that the trailers generally have only 2 support points per side. When my Albin is on the hard I use 4 jack stands per side (plus the keel) when I am on the hard all my doors and windows still open and slide.

pete

 

[Rufus]

. But the straps find weak spots and the hydraulic pads can put very high pressure on the hull. The machine can lift the whole boat right up lifting only the pads in the bilge area and a FG boat can easily be damaged by a non skillful and uninformed operator. The pads are just to keep the boat from tipping over so very little force/pressure is needed. But a flick of the wrist by the operator can probably damage any boat.

The trailers I'm referring to lift the boat and move it via the pads only. No keel support whatsoever...no provisions for keel support. As I mentioned earlier, I've seen a 48' boat on a 35 foot trailer, and the bottom bows inward where the pads are pushing. In one instance they couldn't get the trailer to let go of the deep V boat bottom because the pads were wedged in place. Insane stuff....and I assure everyone I am not making this up. A keel lift trailer is an entirely different animal, and probably suitable for the task...depends if they go through the trouble to shim the keel every five or six feet and how carefully they set the boat on the trailer with the travel lift. If they just plop it down, there will almost certainly be two high spots on the keel that take the entire weight of the boat. Bad news. I wouldn't purchase a cored hull boat that I suspected was ever on one of these pad lift trailers.

 

[randaye1000]

wood boats

I regularly hauled a 30' owens out/in. Had no problems. It had a 5/4 double diagonal hull. When going in, if I was going to go away from it, I kept a 1-1/2" electric sump pump in her. Kept the water down till she swelled up. Had no trouble with a travel lift every winter, then on cradle. 3 straps. I guess the boys knew what they were doing.