Willard Hull Coring

[AKDoug]

I just had a vessel surveyed and the percussion inspection indicated either a core separation or void. I thought the hull was uncored? The construction data says the hull is a solid fiberglass lay up and the superstructure has end grain balsa in all horizontal laminations and synthetic coring in all vertical ones. The suspect area is in the outer hull on the starboard side mostly above the deck and below the cap rail just behind the pilothouse door. Opinions?

 

[Brooksie]

Willard with a cored hull... I don't think so. What length / model?

 

[AKDoug]

It's a 1999 Pilothouse, 30 footer. The other term the surveyor used was "a possible non-bonding event during layup". I was/am pretty sure the hull isn't cored. The exterior superstructure is molded as well as parts of the interior, and then finished over with teak and such over the fiberglass. The potential flaw is above the waterline and was deemed non-structural.

 

[Dream Trawl]

Boat Hulls - Cores and Structural Issues: Online Articles by David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor
Check the online articles on core materials

 

[Nomad Willy]

I own a W30 and am familiar w Willard's. No cored Willard hulls that I know of.

My second thought was a big blister. But they are usually below the W/L. Perhaps the boat was hit there, damaged and repaired .. perhaps by an owner??

How could a surveyor not know what he's look'in at? Maybe he's a welder or a dishwasher.

What boat is this?

 

[AKDoug]

It's pretty new. It's well above waterline, the engine only has 50 hours on it and it has been on the hard almost all of it's life. One of those dreams that didn't pan out for the owner. The suspicion was stated in the survey by percussing the hull with a hammer, nothing visible but a different sound on that part of the hull. Surveyors always find "something" and even sitting on the hard for a dozen years will "wear" some things out. Final stages of negotiating for the sale...
I have been shoeing horses for 20 years, and sometimes I still wonder what I'm looking at

 

[hollywood8118]

my understanding is the Willard hulls are non cored, and about as strong as a cast iron bath tub, in fact there is a resemblance.........
HOLLYWOOD

 

[Nomad Willy]

Yes our stern does look a bit like a bathtub. And our hulls look much like a whale. I always leave my engine running so the whales can tell it's not a relative of theirs. But for whatever reason a big Humpback got right in front of us (broadside) and stopped Willy in about 2'. The Willard hull was strong enough for that.

 

[BruceK]

Were you present at survey? If not, have you and the surveyor had a good chat yet,would revisiting the boat with the surveyor help with your well justified concerns? It is a worry if he does not know the hull composition.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Doug that questionable spot on the hull may be a cover-up of a modification made by a previous owner. Look at the scupper Chris is working on here w Willy. Scuppers are not standard on W30s. Then look at the 2nd photo (pardon my fenders) and see the protruding bolt heads just below the gunnel in the green. That was a modification that was taken out and returned to basic original. These are old boats usually w several owners. We're the fifth for Willy.

If the boat you're looking at is in Puget Sound and your'e up north I could be persuaded to take a look at it for you. Personally it dosn't sound like anything I'd worry about. Just take it into consideration w all the other questionable elements of this boat (being an old boat there are many) and feed it into your "go - no go" formula.

Is this that Horizon in Everett for $29K?

Check this really nice W30 out.
http://pacificmotorboat.com/willardboats/content/willard-vega-30-searcher-knot-again

 

[AKDoug]

This is a Virginia boat, so I am looking at transport across the country to get to Anacortes. I hope to be there for the Willard Owners Group rally the beginning of May. The boatyard I am delivering to is about a half mile from the harbor with the rally. It hasn't been modified at all, it hasn't hardly been used at all. It's one of the last four 30' boats Willard turned out and the owner is finally coming to awareness that he isn't going to actually use it. I will be looking at all the modifications to the rest of the Willard fleet and considering what I want to do to my "blank slate" boat. It doesn't even have any electronics except a VHF and a sounder. Fun!

 

[AKDoug]

The surveyor knew the construction of the hull and superstructure, as the survey notes both. My question about coring was mis-stated as the survey noted a void or non-bonding event by percussing (not very reliable) the hull with a plastic hammer. I thought the Willard hulls were all laid up in one single process to a Mil-Spec that would make a non-bonding event very unlikely or impossible to achieve.

 

[cappy208]

Sooo.... you bought her. How is she? Did you make the rally? I would look inside the boat for a loose bulkhead to hull joint, or a loose deck beam glass socket. Sounds like a rap of something loose inside can mimic the stated results.

 

[AKDoug]

I am beyond thrilled with the boat! As for any issues with the glass I have had no issues and don't expect to find any related to the "percussing" the surveyor did. I didn't close until after the rally, much to my disappointment. All else went well, Anacortes is a nice place to hang out for a while and the harbor had bicycles for loan so I wasn't walking from North Harbor Diesel into town for West Marine and the grocery store. The trip up was a red letter success story, caught a perfect weather system that lasted the whole trip North and into Prince Wiliam Sound.
I put about 550 hours on the Hobbs last year, and it looks like I will top that this year. I came in off the water last night and am heading back down to Homer today to get a couple of days of Halibut fishing in before it's over and I haul out for the winter. Still a half a million projects to work on, but it keeps your mind busy and I am greatly enjoying "making her mine".
I was unable to replicate whatever noise the surveyor was getting when he whacked my boat with a hammer, it sounds solid to me It is not an issue unless it becomes an issue...

 

[Nomad Willy]

AKDoug,
Glad you had a good year w your new boat. Our old boat took most of the summer getting her half way into acceptable shape. Working on the fuel system now and have found quite a few old stringy pieces of Teflon tape thread sealant here and there in the system. I'm replacing all the hoses except in the return plumbing. Much else done like replacing the sea water intake valve and the intermediate prop shaft bearing. Took out and plugged/repaired a hole where a through hull valve had been for years. Considered it a hazard.

Here's Willy a few days ago. Bottom is ready for paint. Prop painted w Petitt Barnacle Buster, removed the remote oil filter, rebuilt the hyd rudder cyl and other things.

"It is not an issue unless it becomes an issue..."
Some things have to be dealt w that way.

 

[cappy208]

Good on ya! Nice to hear a success story.

I passed a vega 'Baco' yesterday in the Hudson River. I called them up to chat. She is a 1966 Willard. Nice shape. Re engined. Classy boat.

Enjoy yours.

 

[Serene]

Beautiful shape Willy!

 

[Bluetide]

I just had a vessel surveyed and the percussion inspection indicated either a core separation or void. I thought the hull was uncored? The construction data says the hull is a solid fiberglass lay up and the superstructure has end grain balsa in all horizontal laminations and synthetic coring in all vertical ones. The suspect area is in the outer hull on the starboard side mostly above the deck and below the cap rail just behind the pilothouse door. Opinions?

I had a core sample done for commercial purposes.
Here is the report for my Willard UB40

 

[boatpoker]

Many "solid" glass hulls have a band of core in the gunnels (gunwhales) above deck level, largely to make the hull a bit thicker to ease the fitting of hawse pipes etc. The designed progression of the laminate schedule also tends to make this the thinnest area of the hull and a bit of core makes it look more substantial. This seems to match the OP's description of where the issue is. If this is the case, It's still commonly referred to as a solid glass hull. I have owned two such boats and surveyed dozens with this feature although I don't know about the Willard, it's been a long time since I surveyed one.

 

[AKDoug]

The core sample information doesn't tell me anything, really. Can you break down what the results of the core sample mean to a lay person? I understand the number of layers of glass in the lay up, but see no "result" in say a percentage from or of the quality of the laminate layup. Was the core from a section of the hull that percussed poorly or is it a random core taken for the sample. I would like to know more.

 

[Bluetide]

AKDoug,
This is a random core sample of the underwater area.
The local marine board wanted to see if this vessel meets their standards.
As you can see the sample was made up of 44% glass content,they have a minimun of 40% to allow commercial operation.
Bluetide.

 

[boatpoker]

The core test is simply a matter of burning off (hence the reference to crucible temperatures) the resin in order to determine the resin/glass ratio and to enable peeling apart of the glass layers to determine the laminate schedule.

Older FRP boats tended (not in this case) to have a much higher resin content as the process was somewhat primitive (Bill & Bob with a bucket of resin and a roll of glass). 60's / 70's production boats may have had as much as 70% resin content while newer processes result in about 50/50 laminates although this too can vary depending on the type of cloth used.

Later (1980's) engineering studies showed that a much lower resin content was actually stronger. By that time the various infusion processes were coming into play which allowed much more control of this ratio than Bill & Bob were capable of.

 

[Bluetide]

boatpoker,
Wow,well said.
Bluetide

 

[FF]

The core sample was required to assure the licensing folks the boat was built with Fire Retardant resin , not cheaper yacht resin.

In the US this is required for a boat to carry more than a minimum number.

A >6 Pack< boat could be of cardboard that dissolves when wet but with the proper gear , fire ext and vests , it gets an OK.

If you wish to carry more folks the FR resin is required. Further up in the pax count gets to Sub chapter T , collision bulkhead , inclining test afloat with weight and better bilge pumping are part of the deal.

The laminate sked simply shows it is a military build ,. WR is woven roving .

The military has the bucks to require a large lay up crew and have the basic hull done in one work session.

Less expensive yachts will have WR CSM WR CSM layup (chopped strand mat) as a small crew can do the boat over a day or two. CSM also adds thickness cheaper than WR.

The WR/WR is far more tolerant of damage than the WR/CSM layup, but then bulldozing a Utility off a sinking carrier deck is part of the carriers abandon ship drill , that yachts seldom contemplate.

 

[boatpoker]

The core sample was required to assure the licensing folks the boat was built with Fire Retardant resin , not cheaper yacht resin.

In the US this is required for a boat to carry more than a minimum number.

A >6 Pack< boat could be of cardboard that dissolves when wet but with the proper gear , fire ext and vests , it gets an OK.

If you wish to carry more folks the FR resin is required. Further up in the pax count gets to Sub chapter T , collision bulkhead , inclining test afloat with weight and better bilge pumping are part of the deal.

The laminate sked simply shows it is a military build ,. WR is woven roving .

The military has the bucks to require a large lay up crew and have the basic hull done in one work session.

Less expensive yachts will have WR CSM WR CSM layup (chopped strand mat) as a small crew can do the boat over a day or two. CSM also adds thickness cheaper than WR.

The WR/WR is far more tolerant of damage than the WR/CSM layup, but then bulldozing a Utility off a sinking carrier deck is part of the carriers abandon ship drill , that yachts seldom contemplate.

I keep a copy of the relevant Code of Federal Regulations and The American Bureau of Shipping Standards on my desk. I also have all of the US Mil specs for "Reinforced Plastic Vessels" There is nothing in any of them that I can find with the requirements you state. Can you please provide the legal references for the commercial use requirements.

 

[FF]

Just go to the US CG site for inspected vessels , or to Sub T section for all of the rules.

My computer server runs at dial up speeds , or I would do it for you.

 

[boatpoker]

Just go to the US CG site for inspected vessels , or to Sub T section for all of the rules.

My computer server runs at dial up speeds , or I would do it for you.

Thanks, I'll take a look. I am not very familiar with US commercial vessel requirements but always interested to learn more.

 

[FF]

If you stop in at one of the US CG offices they will hand you a pretty comprehensive book, free.

Just tell them you want to build a boat to carry ,say, 16 folks for hire.

Might even send it to a US address with a phone call?

 

[boatpoker]

If you stop in at one of the US CG offices they will hand you a pretty comprehensive book, free.

Just tell them you want to build a boat to carry ,say, 16 folks for hire.

Might even send it to a US address with a phone call?

I found fire retardant specs for insulation, paint, floor finishes, deck finishes and non-load bearing interior partitions but I can't find anything on hull laminate schedules or fire retardant resins.

I am particularly interested in specs for the laminate schedule because neither US Mil. specs, CE, Det Norske Veritas, American Bureau of Shipping nor ABYC have ever been able to come up with a spec for that due to the infinite number of variables. Even the US Mil spec specifies only results for laminate testing and do not rule out the use of CSM.

I am also interested in the spec for fire retardant resins as all i know about those is that they caused the huge blister issue for Uniflyte which caused the demise of that company.

 

[LarryM]

In case you don't already have them, here are a couple of publications you might find helpful relating to USCG and Mil. Spec. for fire retardancy.

NAVIGATION AND VESSEL INSPECTION CIRCULAR NO. 8-87 With Change 1
Enclosure (1) to NVIC 8-87
NOTES ON DESIGN, CONSTRUCTION, INSPECTION AND REPAIR OF FIBER REINFORCED PLASTIC VESSELS
https://www.uscg.mil/d13/cfvs/PDFs/nvic8-87.pdf
Chapter 1., Part F, 1. & 2.

Military Specification (Milspec) Mil-R-21607
Guideline for the Approval of Laminating Resin for Fiber-Reinforced Composites Used in Life-saving Equipment and Small Passenger Vessels
Fire Retardant Resin
https://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5214/docs/2008_06_26 Resin Guide.pdf

Larry
M/V Boomarang