Replace a Suncor anchor with... what?

[wkearney99]

Anyone replaced their Suncor anchor with something else, and happy with it?

We've got a 45# Suncor Plowmaster anchor (and all chain rode) on our EB47 and I hate it.

It just never seems to get a proper bite when anchoring at various places around the Chesapeake. Especially not around St. Michael's (lots of mud). I've had to pull loose and not re-set twice when winds changed directions and picked up. NOT FUN, especially in the middle of the night.

I realize anchor preference can reach near Holy Wars levels of contention, debating one style vs another. I'm not trying to troll for an argument, or a discussion on anchoring techniques.

My questions are two. What alternatives have people found as a successful replacement, and did they fit using the existing pulpit roller on an Eastbay.

I'm not unwilling to make changes to the pulpit/roller but would want seriously convincing evidence to justify the need for it.

 

[mvweebles]

This chart gives dimensions using roller axle as baseline. Yours is essentially equal to the 50lb CQR. More info in SV Panope YouTube channel episode 106

You have a lot of options. The Ultra is SS and pretty expensive as a result.

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

S/V Panope's #131 has a useful comparison chart in the back of it.

We've not had great luck with a Delta here in the Chesapeake.

Good results with a Fortress and with a SuperMAX. Former wouldn't ride all that well on our current davit roller, and besides, they dismantle and make a decent kedge. Latter too long for the area between our roller and the chain stopper.

We've just begun to try a Vulcan. Similar to a Spade, but one piece. Our initial trial was good, but an anecdote of two instances doesn't deserve too much respect yet.

-Chris

 

[wkearney99]

#106 seems to be about roller effort, informative, no doubt, but I'm not sure it's directly relevant to my question about alternatives for holding/resetting on the Chesapeake.

It does give a nice side view of how various ones meet the pulpit though.
CQR:

Ultra:

Which does help, in that the pulpit on the EB47 does have limits. There's a bar across the front (which can be removed) that might be an issue with anchors with a taller or more angled shank portion.

There are two rollers in the pulpit. One right out at the front for guiding the chain up and then another a few inches back/up for the shank to rest upon. There is a box at the front that I'd assume might interfere with something that had a more spread point of connection to the blade of the anchor. I've not made measurements of it, however.

It does seem to have good clearance underneath for just about any style.

 

[wkearney99]

We've just begun to try a Vulcan. Similar to a Spade, but one piece. Our initial trial was good, but an anecdote of two instances doesn't deserve too much respect yet.

Thanks for the point about limited data not being authoritative. I've seen your comments about the Vulcan, and noted your also being on the Chesapeake.

What drove you from the others to the Vulcan?

 

[wkearney99]

I've also learned over the years "buy once, cry once" when it comes to making purchasing decisions.

For a lot of things cost-savings is an important factor. But for others, your piece of mind is more important than most folks really consider.

I'm unafraid to spend for something like this, and realize a shiny variant in stainless is going to be a lot more expensive. It's nice having a shiny bit of anchor but performance is really going to be more important for me on this. If I can get that and shiny... then I'd be ok spending for it.

 

[rslifkin]

We're not in the Chesapeake, but I've been happy with the Vulcan. Ours is a size above Rocna's recommendation, so we've got a 73lb model on a 38 foot, 27k lb boat. In my case, I picked it based on it being the best fit on the pulpit/roller out of the good performing modern designs. You can clear a rollbar in your setup, so a Mantus M1 may be a viable choice if the rest of the measurements check out.

 

[mvweebles]

What drove you from the others to the Vulcan?

Here is a screenshot from panope on holding. Vulcan ranks tops overall, but have to observe that the CQR, while mediocre at best, scores high in soft mud.

Tough decision. Chesapeake seems to be a very unique anchoring ground. But it's hard to ignore Panopes test results. You may want to find his CQR test and watch the entire video to see his full commentary on where it's deficient.

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

Thanks for the point about limited data not being authoritative. I've seen your comments about the Vulcan, and noted your also being on the Chesapeake.

What drove you from the others to the Vulcan?

Well, there was some significant zen involved. From our experience around here...

Would have gone with a MAX20, but I'm pretty sure the shank is too long for our setup now... it'd be within cat's whiskers...

Would have gone with a Fortress, maybe an FX-55, but it wouldn't really hang nicely on our davit. And that gives me an excuse to get an FX-37, carry that as a hot spare and kedge. The 37 would be a bit more easily handled as a kedge, compared to the 55...

So I started with Steve Goodwin's comparison data... and then modified the outcome using a couple of my own criteria. Ideally mud/slime/goo/ooze/muck capable. Preference for *one piece* construction. Steel, not alloy, Galvanized, not stainless. Heaviest possible. Non-roll-bar (partly influenced by Steve's early findings, but also partly because I think they're ugly... and not sure one would fit.)

(* There's an anecdote on Morgan's Cloud about a Spade once returning without it's fluke. I've read it's almost impossible, but happened anyway. Didn't want to deal with something like that. Also said to be difficult to re-galvanize, because of the lead insert. Otherwise, the Spade has gotten good recommendations...)​

From that, my top two ended up being Vulcan 40 and same-weight Sarca Excel. Got templates. Same weight Sarca won't fit. Got the Vulcan. And it's sorta like a one-piece Spade.

-Chris

 

[wkearney99]

There's an anecdote on Morgan's Cloud about a Spade once returning without it's fluke. I've read it's almost impossible, but happened anyway.

OMG. That's hilariously bad.

Because what boating experience isn't extra special when your anchor comes back up MISSING PIECES!

I mean, we've all had our share of "oh, well, that's f'ed up" experiences but that would be a new one.

 

[ranger58sb]

Here is a screenshot from panope on holding. Vulcan ranks tops overall, but have to observe that the CQR, while mediocre at best, scores high in soft mud.

The CQR is not uncommon around here, apparently mostly works OK... except for when it doesn't. Ditto Delta. We had a Delta -- which I view as a one-piece version of a CQR -- and it worked mostly... except for when it didn't. Worked fine when we lived in Florida, not so much in the ooze around here.

Actually, everywhere on the Chesapeake is NOT slime, ooze, soft mud, goop, muck... and there are actually spots of more solid mud, some of it even "hard"...

But when you try anchoring in a pocket that turns out to be slime, ooze, etc etc etc an anchored boat can "sail" upstream for a while until the situation is fixed.

One of the common complaints about Danforth-style anchors is about that resetting thing. Tide will change the boat's direction a couple times per day. We've never really experienced that difficult-reset thing, though, and it seems like the whole shank is usually buried somewhere down around China...

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

One of the common complaints about Danforth-style anchors is about that resetting thing. Tide will change the boat's direction a couple times per day. We've never really experienced that difficult-reset thing, though, and it seems like the whole shank is usually buried somewhere down around China...

I think the Danforth direction change issues show up a lot less if the bottom is soft enough for it to bury really well. It's when the flukes and stock aren't 100% buried that it's easier for the chain to foul it in a reversal, or have it pop out and maybe (or maybe not) reset, rather than staying put or rotating.

 

[wkearney99]

but I'm pretty sure the shank is too long for our setup now... it'd be within cat's whiskers...

Good to know, I'll have to note the existing dimensions.

Would have gone with a Fortress, maybe an FX-55, but it wouldn't really hang nicely on our davit.

The boat came with an additional Fortress on a rope rode. You're correct on the problem with it not fitting on the rollers. I have never used it, and can't recall the model# on it. I'll have to check the next time I'm at the storage locker.

From that, my top two ended up being Vulcan 40 and same-weight Sarca Excel. Got templates. Same weight Sarca won't fit. Got the Vulcan. And it's sorta like a one-piece Spade.

Good point about templates.

 

[DennisB1]

I have a 55kg Vulcan on my gb 49 classic, scale wt 74k with 3/4 fuel and water. It has worked good over 7 seasons in Pnw cruising. Sets quickly and had no issues with dragging anchor. The Vulcan replaced a 30kg Bruce anchor. The Bruce moved down the bay in 70-80mph gusts. I could easily drag the Bruce with both engines in idle reverse 5 x+ scope , no true with Vulcan.
Your anchor seems small for I believe a 50k boat. I would suggest a 40kg vulcan that should provide secure with 4+ scope anchor age. I have used to 3x scope in light wind conditions in a tight anchorage with success.

 

[wkearney99]

The CQR is not uncommon around here, apparently mostly works OK... except for when it doesn't. Ditto Delta. We had a Delta -- which I view as a one-piece version of a CQR -- and it worked mostly... except for when it didn't. Worked fine when we lived in Florida, not so much in the ooze around here.

Actually, everywhere on the Chesapeake is NOT slime, ooze, soft mud, goop, muck... and there are actually spots of more solid mud, some of it even "hard"...

But when you try anchoring in a pocket that turns out to be slime, ooze, etc etc etc an anchored boat can "sail" upstream for a while until the situation is fixed.

One of the common complaints about Danforth-style anchors is about that resetting thing. Tide will change the boat's direction a couple times per day. We've never really experienced that difficult-reset thing, though, and it seems like the whole shank is usually buried somewhere down around China...

We had a Delta on our last boat and it was also unable to maintain anchor at St. Michael's after wind shifts and gusts. That was a different boat (which had a bad tendency to dance on anchor), with a short chain/rope rode. I pretty much refuse to overnight there at anchor anymore, at least not until we get a different anchor. I just don't want the added uncertainty. The wife continues to want to go there last minute for 4th of July, and I get to be the bad guy again when her scheduling window misses getting slip. Which was today's conversation... leading to this thread...

More often than not our anchoring experience on the Bay has concluded with the usual 'hose off the mud' added effort. It's been a rare odd time for it to come up clean. The places with sand or 'not slime' weren't usually overnight locations, so it never seemed to rise to being a problem with the Suncor. Which makes me think as soon as I get a different anchor... we'll start anchoring somewhere the new one won't work!

 

[wkearney99]

Your anchor seems small for I believe a 50k boat. I would suggest a 40kg vulcan that should provide secure with 4+ scope anchor age. I have used to 3x scope in light wind conditions in a tight anchorage with success.

It's what came on the boat, and you're correct that it's about 50k tonnage.

I've had 3:1 hold fine for an afternoon, and generally try to use a 5:1 when space allows and for overnights and that works most of the time. But even a 7:1 has gotten pulled loose from slimy mud (and not re-set). The "not re-setting" part is the real problem for me. Twice now, a 5:1 and then a 7:1 has come loose after a 180 shift in wind direction and 20-25kt gusts. That's what really annoyed me, all that rode out and the damn thing wouldn't hook back up. Just wouldn't get a fresh bite and we had to scramble to avoid complications with other vessels. Not my idea of fun, and even less-so in the middle of the night, in the rain.

 

[rslifkin]

Which makes me think as soon as I get a different anchor... we'll start anchoring somewhere the new one won't work!

The newer anchor designs work well in a wider range of conditions than many of the old designs (like your CQR) do. Combine that with a larger anchor and you'll find far fewer places that present a challenge and would do better with a different anchor.

 

[FWT]

When I was making a choice myself I was initially sold on the Ultra. It tested well with the then-most-current Panope tests. Pricey in stainless, but I agree that if that buys peace of mind then worth it.

What you won't find without a serious hunt, is that your options are limited in swivels and attachment. The anchor is designed to almost force you into their swivel. The swivel appears to work fine in standard conditions EXCEPT for the crucial element that its vulnerable to breaking in a side load if pulled hard to the side in a reset in weather.

I went Vulcan. Mantus swivel. My new boat is delivered in a week so the Vulcan still sits in the garage, so can't report on experience with it.

 

[rslifkin]

On the swivel topic, I haven't felt the need for one with my Vulcan. Being a mixed rode, the chain doesn't always re-load in the same orientation if I've deployed past the end of it. But I've never had much trouble getting the anchor into the roller. If it's sideways, it flips to the proper orientation as soon as it touches the roller, even without a swivel. If it's perfectly backwards it won't re-orient, but a prod with a boat hook to get it moving so it hits the roller somewhat off from perfectly backwards is enough, then it'll flip around.

 

[Comodave]

If you are anchoring in mud, Fortress has mud pads available. Don’t remember exactly what they are called but something like that.

 

[ranger58sb]

I have a 55kg Vulcan on my gb 49 classic, scale wt 74k with 3/4 fuel and water.

Your 49 weighs 74K lbs? Wow!

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

More often than not our anchoring experience on the Bay has concluded with the usual 'hose off the mud' added effort. It's been a rare odd time for it to come up clean.

Yeah, there's that. We had a mixed rode before, purposely to cut down on chain cleaning time... but it still often took about 30-45 minutes.

We still have mixed rode, but the leading 200' is chain. I've begun (twice now) experimenting with gradually moving the boat toward the chain... well before bringing the anchor in... hoping water flow will gradually clean up the chain segment closer to the boat. Like starting ~2 hours before we intend to move. Shows promise; we'll see.

I want to fashion a 4' extension "wand" to use on the wash-down hose, too, something I can get nearer the chain as it comes up...

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

If you are anchoring in mud, Fortress has mud pads available. Don’t remember exactly what they are called but something like that.

Mud palms. And Fortress now recommends using them all the time.

-Chris

 

[mvweebles]

Mud palms. And Fortress now recommends using them all the time.

-Chris

Correct, and Mud Palms come with all new Fortress Anchors. Not to be confused with the "Mud Setting" of the flukes from their standard position to the steeper angle setting.

From Fortress website:

Under most conditions, you will want to stick to the 32 degree fluke angle setting. These include hard or soft sand and mud. The 45 degree fluke angle setting should only be used in extremely soupy mud or silt. By extremely soupy, we mean almost liquid.

Some customers mistakenly believe that the 45 degree angle setting would lead to a stronger hold in sand or mud. This is not the case! As stated above, using the 45 degree setting in anything but very soupy mud or silt will lead to a failure to set.​

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

Speaking of Fortress and slime... we actually never had to actually use the 45-degree angle.

And with the SuperMAX, we never actually had to use the mud angle either.

The Fortress takes work to change over. Bring it on deck. Dismantle. Re-mantle. (?) Re-deploy.

With the SuperMAX, we could have adjusted more easily. With the anchor at rest in the davit, one bolt out, change angle, reinsert bolt, done. Relatively elegant, actually.

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

For the mud removal thing, I've debated adding a second washdown pump with a sprayer under the pulpit (aimed down the chain a bit) to knock more of the mud off the chain. Although with a high powered washdown pump I can usually do just fine with the hose nozzle in my hand set to a really tight cone, but not quite a jet. Aim either at the roller as the chain comes over, or better, around the side, downward at the chain between the roller and the water.

 

[wkearney99]

Yeah, there's that. We had a mixed rode before, purposely to cut down on chain cleaning time... but it still often took about 30-45 minutes.

We still have mixed rode, but the leading 200' is chain. I've begun (twice now) experimenting with gradually moving the boat toward the chain... well before bringing the anchor in... hoping water flow will gradually clean up the chain segment closer to the boat. Like starting ~2 hours before we intend to move. Shows promise; we'll see.

I want to fashion a 4' extension "wand" to use on the wash-down hose, too, something I can get nearer the chain as it comes up...

I had a mixed rode on a previous boat and the problem I found was the rope part ended up getting pretty stinky over time.

I have one of these to clean the chain & anchor:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XQD55M9/

And this for the hose:
https://hosecoil.com/products/side-mount-enclosure-with-expandable-hose-25

The sprayer wand with a single hole tip manages to make a pretty clean stream that allows hitting the chain from a few feet away. The hosecoil tray (which is typically overpriced) is mounted down in the anchor locker, on the side of one of the chain locker access panel doors. The collapsible hose keeps things tidy. I use plastic quick-disconnects, as metal ones corrode too quickly.

I've often debated having some sort of sprayer nozzles integrated underneath the anchor pulpit but the added time/effort/expense of getting all the pieces rigged up to do it just never seem to be quite worth it. And unless I spent a lot more re-doing the pulpit to 'hide' them it'd end up looking rather tacked-on.

Makes me jealous of a friend's Magellano that has a 'sluice' of sorts for the anchor rode, and a washdown that provides a near fire-hose amount water to it.

 

[ranger58sb]

I have one of these to clean the chain & anchor:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XQD55M9/

The sprayer wand with a single hole tip manages to make a pretty clean stream that allows hitting the chain from a few feet away.

Thanks for that tip; looks better than many.

-Chris

 

[wkearney99]

Thanks for that tip; looks better than many.

I was surprised it manages to keep a tight stream and have enough pressure to be able to direct water at the chain from standing on the deck above it. And this using the onboard fresh water pump to provide pressure. Though I wouldn't mind having a raw water washdown pump and plumbing for it, but don't really want to get into a new through-hull and then the labor to route new plumbing. We carry enough water to not have it usually be an issue 'wasting it' for the anchor. The real waste comes from getting stray gunk off the deck, as the EB47's pulpit design routes everything straight back onto the foredeck. I'm jealous of other setups that at least have some sort of drainage channel.

 

[rslifkin]

I was surprised it manages to keep a tight stream and have enough pressure to be able to direct water at the chain from standing on the deck above it. And this using the onboard fresh water pump to provide pressure. Though I wouldn't mind having a raw water washdown pump and plumbing for it, but don't really want to get into a new through-hull and then the labor to route new plumbing. We carry enough water to not have it usually be an issue 'wasting it' for the anchor. The real waste comes from getting stray gunk off the deck, as the EB47's pulpit design routes everything straight back onto the foredeck. I'm jealous of other setups that at least have some sort of drainage channel.

I teed the forward head intake thru hull for my washdown. Depending on what intakes you have, you might be able to share an existing one.



My pulpit does the same thing, so I try to keep the spray aimed below the pulpit to knock most of the junk into the water. When some dirt starts to get on the pulpit and looks like it may run back onto the deck, I pause the windlass for a moment and spray off the pulpit to push the junk off the forward end of it. Doesn't always keep the deck 100% clean, but it greatly reduces the junk ending up on deck.