Lower helm station

[Action]

I am a few years from retiring. At that point I will leave the desert and get closer to water. And will buy a "trawler". For the most part cruising would be my wife and my self. She has nearly zero experience but takes direction well.

For now my attraction is 40 to 44 foot range. The general design of a Sundeck.
I have operated many single screw express cruisers in the 30 foot and shorter range. A couple of house boats on Lake Powell from 50 to 60 feet with twin outboards.
And a 32 foot sailboat. Just not a trawler with a fly bridge.

There will be a learning curve for sure. And pretty sure I have a lot to learn.

Some of these do not have a lower helm station. My first thought because of my past is a lower helm would be mandatory. Now I am not so sure as most of the fly bridges are fully enclosed in canvas. And the vantage for docking would be better up there anyway.

Does a lower helm make a significant difference when considering the next step in yachting?

Action

 

[Comodave]

We have had both styles. I prefer no lower helm since it takes up space in the salon and the view generally sucks. At the flybridge the view is outstanding. It may depend on the weather where you will be boating. In the PNW maybe a lower helm would be nice except for seeing logs and pots. Get a good hardtop or bimini enclosure and use the bridge. We generally don’t go out in bad weather, my wife’s extreme preference, or in really rough seas. The bridge does move more in a heavy seas. We did 6 hours crossing Lake Ontario with 6’ from the starboard quarter driving from the flybridge. My wife didn’t like it but I explained that it was uncomfortable but not dangerous and she became more comfortable with it. Actually I would look for the boat that generally meets your needs in the best condition that your budget allows and go with it whether it has 2 stations or not.

 

[CharlieO.]

I thought I wouldn't drive from the flybridge much, but is my preferred spot. I do like being able to go below if it's chilly or starts raining. We don't have the forward and side enclosures on, we just run with the top.

With that being said where we are now and short term boating plans I'd be more likely to buy without a flybridge than without a lower helm station. But having both is a pretty good option.

 

[psneeld]

I snowbirded from Jersey to Florida for 8 years and 3500 engine hours, much of it in inclement weather (winter/early spring) on my last trawler.

I dislike clear vinyl enclosures unless very clear and even then only a few are ever as good as glass. Plus on windy days, if not very tight, they can be quite noisy.

My trawler had good visibility (not sure what some people call "poor visibility") from the lower helm so that wasn't a deterrent and it was warm and dry all the time with good access to my "better" nav station and the galley/heads. So that's where I drove from a lot.

I have driven many, many different boats being a delivery captain for a marina and my own business ad can see where some great boats had no lower helm and on nice days or where the water was very clear the flybridge was super.

As a long distance cruiser or multi seasonal one, I do prefer the option.

 

[jleonard]

In 30 years I only ran from the lower station once or twice.
Even in bad weather I prefer the bridge.
Lower station is a must for maintenance IMO.

 

[soin2la]

Does a lower helm make a significant difference when considering the next step in yachting?

Where and when could make a difference. I don't know many serious boaters in WA or BC, who boat year round without a lower helm.

 

[Action]

While I have lived in the PNW, retirement will be in the South East.
Likely the fresh water of PickWick or Wilson Lake. With access to the Gulf

I want to be home ported generally North of named events and South of the white stuff. While inclement weather can happen, I would rather not travel during that kind of weather. Not looking for that kind of excitement. Traveling slow is the goal.

 

[backinblue]

I don't have a flybridge and wish I did at times. However, I would not want to own a boat with only a flybridge and no lower helm. In rough weather, the movement up top is greater than below and can be pretty uncomfortable. If you ever have to dock single-handed, it can be difficult if you are having to climb up and down stairs quickly. Just the climbing up and down can be difficult as you get older, especially on some boats that have more or less of a ladder leading to the bridge. Ideally, I'd have 2 helms, but if I could only pick one, it would be lower.

 

[Action]

^^ You are the second to post about the movement in the upper helm. Something I had not considered. I would prefer not to travel with that kind of weather, sometimes I don't get to pick the weather.

Thanks

 

[mvweebles]

My first powerboat was a Uniflite 42, more or less the same as a Sundeck Trawler. It had no lower helm, and the flybridge was fully enclosed with Isinglass (sp?). As Psneeld states, plastic enclosures can become difficult to see through in many common weather conditions - rain, fog, and running at night, at least along the Pacific. It was mostly a liveaboard and day-boat so not an issue.

My Willard 36 Sedan has an open flybridge and a lower helm. The W36 is low to the water and has a high bow so forward visibility from the lower helm is not great. Fine for long overnight runs, but I dock from the flybridge. Backinblue makes a good point that single-handing from with a flybrdge helm can be more challenging, but I would temper that with docking a Sundeck-style anything is challenging, especially single handed.

So....if you want an opinion, for me, it would not be a major determining factor. For the Uniflite, as Comodave said, I would lean towards no lower helm and reclaim the living space. It was only used as a day-boat for fun and entertaining. For my W36, I really use the lower helm on long overnight runs. Not having it would mean the boat would not be fit for purpose.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

^^ You are the second to post about the movement in the upper helm. Something I had not considered. I would prefer not to travel with that kind of weather, sometimes I don't get to pick the weather.

Thanks

Action

While I understand this statement, I do not agree with its significance. Lousy seas are lousy seas. Sure, theres more arc-swing the higher you go, but it's not that noticeable. Would not make my short-list of where to drive from or an influencer on lower helm vs upper helm.

Peter

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

Since our waters are the PNW the visibility from the flybridge is almost a necessity to look for logs, whales and kayackers. As previously mentioned looking through Eisenglass is marginal at best, add rain and no wipers doesn't help visibility at all. However there is a solution, the pilothouse, great visibility no eisenglass, doesn't take up room in the salon and you can still have a flybridge for those one or two sunny days..

 

[ranger58sb]

We had a lower station once. Liked having it, used it probably 5x over 5 years.

Better visibility from above has almost always trumped lower station benefits.

Enclosed flybridge can be better if it's on solid pipe or similar (not a flexible bimini), covered with a hardtop, and if at least front panels are made of more rigid clears (EZ2CY, hard Makrolon, etc.). And maybe even more betterer if perhaps air conditioned, heated.

Pendulum effect can be present, but then again bad weather is bad weather... so being at a lower station isn't necessarily 100% better.

-Chris

 

[psneeld]

It really boils down to the particular boat, how good or bad is lower station visibility and for some boats, there are disadvantages to the flybridge too....plus whether the lower station truly impacts interior layout.

Whooppsss.... wrong again.... reality doesn't matter it's what the operator likes and doesn't like. Though weather/climate is a big factor.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I have both and use either as the situation dictates. Almost always dock and close quarters maneuvering from the fly bridge. Often run the boat from below. That's where all the creature comforts are. But on a warm sunny day I'm up top as much as possible.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I have both and use either as the situation dictates. Almost always dock and close quarters maneuvering from the fly bridge. Often run the boat from below. That's where all the creature comforts are. But on a warm sunny day I'm up top as much as possible.

 

[FWT]

Only one thing to add.

Sun on skin. One may at times wish to limit exposure when sun angles are such that the Bimini isn't protective at the upper helm station.

Having had a bout of melanoma a while back, a pilothouse design with good helm station was a priority.

 

[Action]

^^^ Thanks

 

[Cold Duck]

Had one pilothouse and 3 dual stations. Dock from both as conditions require. Single handed (reduced first mate's mobility), lower station (with side door) lets you jump out with line and snag cleat then line from first mate. If dock boys about, flybridge the only way to fly. At this stage I would not give up either station, it just adds too much flexibility to enjoy the boat. Cold early am departure with coffee in hand lower station fits the bill until things warm up then straight to the flybridge.

 

[Action]

I think I have seen a couple with a lower station and no side door.
That would be an issue that I would want to avoid if equipped with a lower station.

Action

 

[backinblue]

I think I have seen a couple with a lower station and no side door.
That would be an issue that I would want to avoid if equipped with a lower station.

Action

Really depends on the style of the boat and side decks. Some forego useful side decks for more interior room. But I agree a side door is preferable if it fits the boat.

 

[jgwinks]

I think I have seen a couple with a lower station and no side door.
That would be an issue that I would want to avoid if equipped with a lower station.

Action

That's the way my boat is set up. Upper and lower helms but no side doors. If I need to help with lines it's about the same if I'm up or down, I have to go up or down a few stair steps either way. With side doors at the helm it's a simple matter to step outside and grab a line. You can even single hand if you plan for it, have the first line on last line off just outside the door. Best if there's doors on both sides.

I've only run the boat from the lower once, and that was because it was only about 35 deg F out on the Lake. I undocked and docked from the upper.

 

[BruceK]

I have a FB helm as well, but would be content without it. May stem from my first power boat not having a FB helm, and I just got used to it. My Integrity has a FB, practically no current Integrity does.

Docking I can easily see the points I need to see. I have a helm door and quite happy to step outside and reach in to twiddle the gears. I`m available to help with docklines too. I`m closer to the engines enabling me to pick up on any events. But for picking up a mooring ball the FB would be better.

FB or not can be climate related. The further north in Australia the more FB helm only boats you see. Go to Tasmania, the southernmost island state where it can snow in midsummer,most boats will have lower helm, some with nothing else except maybe cockpit controls added.

 

[C lectric]

I have both stations, upper on the bridge, and lower in the saloon. My boat is smaller than many here so in rough water the motion is greater. I very early learned to NOT be on the bridge in rough seas.

Now I almost never use the bridge, even for docking in tight spots.
Compared to many vessels I have excellent visibility from inside.
Now without the inside station I wouldn't own the boat AND visibilty from inside must be GOOD.

Another reason for our choice is we get lots of rain. The inside station means we don't have to protect ourselves from lousy weather. We used to go out in all kinds of wet, cold weather.

Of course where you boat will affect choices and many owners are fine with bridge only boats but not for this guy.

 

[Max1]

How does anyone dock a trawler from the flybridge? I mean, I get it would be easy with several deck hands, but if it is just you, good luck.

We have a 36 footer with a lower helm station and a captains door. Not having any thrusters and a single screw, I can still bring my trawler to the dock and lean out the captains door to snag a cleat with just a rope or a pole. The captain's door is a real blessing. I don't know how I could do this from the flybridge.

 

[Group9]

We have both, and I thought I would always be conning it from the fly bridge, but in reality, I con our boat from the lower helm 95 per cent of the time.

 

[rslifkin]

We have both, and I thought I would always be conning it from the fly bridge, but in reality, I con our boat from the lower helm 95 per cent of the time.

Your lower helm looks to be placed similarly to my only helm (but you also have a flybridge stacked on top). The helm sits on top of the aft cabin looking over the top of the salon, rather than down in the salon or in a pilothouse forward of the salon like many smaller boats have. Personally, I think it's a good helm position, as it's placed similarly to an aft pilothouse, just without being fully indoors. Not as high up as a flybridge, but much better view than a typical helm-in-salon setup. And being further aft, the ride is typically better than a forward pilothouse or a salon helm.

 

[psneeld]

How does anyone dock a trawler from the flybridge? I mean, I get it would be easy with several deck hands, but if it is just you, good luck.

We have a 36 footer with a lower helm station and a captains door. Not having any thrusters and a single screw, I can still bring my trawler to the dock and lean out the captains door to snag a cleat with just a rope or a pole. The captain's door is a real blessing. I don't know how I could do this from the flybridge.

Practice? Ability?

A lot depends, especially on operator's capability...but it's done all the time.

Some boats are easier to pull in to just about every dock, others backing in is just as easy.

So many possibilities.....

 

[mvweebles]

How does anyone dock a trawler from the flybridge? I mean, I get it would be easy with several deck hands, but if it is just you, good luck.

Very slooooowly....It's possible but requires a LOT more prep and forethought. And threshold for abort is a lot lower than with crew.

Wayne Gretzky was famous for saying you skate to where the puck will be, not where it is. Meaning there is a point where the boat is still moving and you're moving from the bridge to the deck. When docking single handed, my goal is to build slow momentum and plan accordingly. When coming alongside a side-tie for example, when I'm 5-feet off the dock and closing, I'll leave the helm and head down to catch a line. I try not to get off the boat until I have a line to the dock which is tough sometimes. Mostly, it takes a lot of time to prep lines and fenders - more if you're docking from a flybridge because you need more time.

But your point is well taken. It greatly adds to the complexity. But with practice and recognition waiving-off the landing is possible/likely, its manageable.

Peter

 

[SteveK]

How does anyone dock a trawler from the flybridge? I mean, I get it would be easy with several deck hands, but if it is just you, good luck.

We have a 36 footer with a lower helm station and a captains door. Not having any thrusters and a single screw, I can still bring my trawler to the dock and lean out the captains door to snag a cleat with just a rope or a pole. The captain's door is a real blessing. I don't know how I could do this from the flybridge.

Max, it can be done from flybridge, did it 4 times on past two days. Can do it from PH too, or a lower helm with loss of rear visibility. The FB can see 360*.
AS for docking, as said by others, it can be done. To do it you must have confidence in your ability to leave the helm when the boat is still moving to the dock and be ready to secure. That means you have put the boat into a controlled drift to the dock where it stops momentarily waiting for you to step off, tie up.

I prefer driving from the FB and did so today with temp at 0*C with 20-25 winds with gusts, sea rough with changing wind direction. It was all good until some sea spray blocked visibility on the enclosure, so down below to the PH to continue the journey. In our waters in the winter, dual stations are a must.