Loop versus passage

[Hippocampus]

Our sailboat is sold. Survey on Tuesday. Closing about a week after. We used her for an occasional passage of 8 to 16 days then cruising a new grounds. Wife has thoughts of doing the great loop in some form but she still likes switching and exploring a new cruising grounds which means passage. She and I like the looks of the small Norhavns and having had weather routers and our own analysis fall us on occasion remain concerned about seaworthiness. Think we like a N40, N43 or N46. Trying to cut back on expenses so not interested in N475 or bigger.
Questions
Can you do the loop in a boat with 5’2” draft?
In reality what airdraft is acceptable?
Is there a real advantage to going with a Kadey-Krogen for this type of mixed used?
What other choices are there in this size range?
Note people seem to depend on reverse AC for heat how much of a headache is it to install heat as we have cruised areas where water temperature is low enough that’s not an option?

 

[boathealer]

If you are serious about learning about the Great Loop and all of its constraints, questions, etc., you should join America's Great Loop Association, open a beer, and read the forums and other information there.

There is a wealth of information there that will be difficult to repeat here with individual questions. Also, the loop route is somewhat dynamic with fuel, storms, lock closings, etc. -- all of the latest information is also available on the AGLCA site.

 

[rslifkin]

5'2" draft should be no problem for the loop. Air draft wise, I remember 19 feet being the hard limit for doing the full loop. If you want to do the Western Erie Canal, you need to clear a 15'6" bridge, so figure 15 feet as the practical point for "go anywhere on the loop".

As far as heat, if you're not cruising in places with water under 40*, you should be able to manage with reverse cycle. It's just not ideal if you need heat away from the dock, as you have to run the generator whenever you need heat. The big plus of reverse cycle is that it's basically a freebie if you have A/C unless you get one of the few systems that doesn't have reverse cycle heat.

For the seaworthiness / weather / boat type question, how far offshore do you ever plan to take it and to what kinds of places? Most well designed coastal cruisers will do just fine for coastal work and a run across to the Bahamas and such, even in less than great conditions. Think about the kind of stuff a decent size sport fish will run in and those are far from a displacement hull passagemaker in design.

 

[menzies]

You also need to consider who may be joining you at times, even for short periods.

We started off by looking at small Nordhavns, the 43 through the 50. For a couple of years we visited with them at shows and went on brokerage boats with James Knight and others. We were very interested in a 50 James had.

The deal breaker for us was space. The ERs are great but you give up living space. We found the salon and galley to be tight but the real impact was the second cabin. It was detailed as a double but on the size boats we were looking at they were really one and a half with the inside of the bed curving against the bow curve.

Overall guest spaces were tight.

This may not be an issue for you but we have a lot of family and friends on board - regularly for two weeks at a time. This was critical for us. And why we ended up with the Grand Alaskan.

As stated above, if you are looking at looping and the islands you will find better boats for your bucks that IMO have the quality and do the job just as well, and better if you have people joining you..

 

[Hippocampus]

In the past have found having heat a game changer just like having a watermaker.. Have really enjoyed the shoulder seasons when density is so much less as well as places people either don’t want to go or can’t stay at. We have spent times just anchored in one place and spending our time exploring by dinghy and hike for weeks. The current boat has reverse AC and hydraunic heat (Wesbasto) . All prior boats have had either air (Espar) or drip diesel heating. Surprised how infrequent heat is done as an option on trawlers. Would expect at these those cruising down East to do it.

 

[Hippocampus]

We have family and occasionally another couple join us at times. They’re usually live lumber so usually join us at a destination not cruise with us. Any particular boats you would suggest?

 

[O C Diver]

I did the Loop in 2017. A few observations:

If you don't plan to go to Canada (Trent Severn canal), 6' draft is doable, less is better.

Mapping out your proposed route will help you to understand air draft limitations as far as appropriate boats. You may go more than once and want to explore areas off the Loop. For this reason, I chose 15' air draft to be able to go almost anywhere.

All sorts of boats in all sorts of sizes do the Loop. While it's nice to miss less days because of weather, it's really not a factor. On average, you're traveling only one out of every three days or so. Picking a Nordhavn would be based on using it other than the Loop.

Imo, doing the whole Loop to experience the Cumberland, Tennessee, Ohio rivers and a number of areas in that region is well worth doing at least once. Chicago to Paducah, KY wasn't as much fun. The Tennessee Tombigbee to Mobile, AL wasn't as bad, but won't make the highlight reel. I would go back to do the Tennessee as I only made it to Guntersville. Would also like to cruise the Ohio to Pittsburgh, but that's a thousand miles.

Ted

 

[menzies]

We have family and occasionally another couple join us at times. They’re usually live lumber so usually join us at a destination not cruise with us. Any particular boats you would suggest?

Lay out your definite wants and definite don't want plus your nice to haves. And based on safely sailing your intended cruising areas.

Range/tankage? Cabins (two walk-around queen with attached heads/or V-berth?), Flybridge? Raised PH,? Powerplant? Single or twins? Thruster(s)? Stabilized? Age? Price? Side walks or full beam salon? Galley up or down? Cockpit? SunDeck/aft cabin? Draft?

I'm only guessing on the money available given your thoughts on a Nordhavn. I would start by looking at some DeFevers, KKs, Selene, Grand Banks, Grand Alaskans, and similar. These are all suitable for what you want to do but are all different in their own ways.

 

[sledge]

If you don't want to join AGLCA right away, this Capt John site covers the topic pretty thoroughly:
https://captainjohn.org/GL-Boat.html

 

[boathealer]

If you don't want to join AGLCA right away, this Capt John site covers the topic pretty thoroughly:
https://captainjohn.org/GL-Boat.html

Good one! Forgot about Capt. John.

 

[ranger58sb]

Wife has thoughts of doing the great loop in some form but she still likes switching and exploring a new cruising grounds which means passage.

Might depend a lot on what "passage" means to you.

-Chris

 

[Frosty]

If you were to look at trawlers in the PNW (not saying you should, but just as a counterpoint), they very often have either a Webasto/Espar or Wallas diesel heater (these are ducted air blown, dedicated heater systems). On larger boats perhaps some sort of diesel-fired boiler system, although I'm not familiar with those as I'm not in your league boat-size-wise. But my point is just that it's perfectly normal there, so no reason not to do it east (just that you may have to install it).

Personally, like you, I like to anchor out and like shoulder seasons, so I would add one if not there already.

Several models of boats I've looked at had "PNW" and "East Coast" versions. If the boat was ordered to be shipped east, it got AC and a lesser galley stove (maybe just top burners, but we're talking low 30's foot boats). If it was ordered for the PNW, it got a Webasto diesel heater and a stove with oven. I suppose since the AC for the "east" boats gives you a sort of free heat, that was good enough in many cases.

So you may have to do your own addition, but I think it's a fine idea.

Also, you can pretty easily add something like a Heatercraft "bus" heater for underway (runs off same basic loop that engine water heater does, for heat underway).

 

[Flatswing]

We loved the Nordy 47 also but it’s designed for passage making - deep draft , high bow, good motion at slow speeds, small interior spaces so you always have a hand hold. Not a primo coastal cruiser. Horrible rear visibility, deep draft. High air draft. Much harder to back into a slip.

There are lots of better options for looping, coastal cruising, Bahamas etc.: 5’ or less draft & ability to get down to 17’ minimum preferably 15’ 6” air draft opens up all the best cruising options including: Champlain & Richelieu canals, Rideau canal, Erie Canal & Trent Severn Waterway

 

[Jeff F]

Do you need to escape winter? I've heard how you like remote anchorages and shoulder season cruising.

You've done the New England <-> Caribbean thing. Maybe take passage making out of the equation and see what you come up with.

The Great Loop is getting lots of attention these days - and you really should join the AGLA to get connected to that community - but there are also a number of smaller loops and diversions, assuming you are able to enter Canada. Lots of historic canals, beautiful fresh water. Northern Lake Huron is spectacular. Lake Champlain, the St Lawrence, Newfoundland, Bras D'Or. Tennessee River. Bahamas. There is endless cruising territory in North America.

I kind of get the real passage making trawler thing. But if you're not planning to cross oceans it seems like you're putting too much weight on the blue water capability.

When I got into a big(ish) powerboat after a lot of sailing I deliberately set out to go places and do things that were impractical or impossible on a sailboat. It was a smashing success. If I ever want to visit the Caribbean it'll be on a sailboat.

 

[twistedtree]

Re heat, and making a broad generalization....

East coast boats have AC and no diesel heat. When it gets cold, boats get hauled or moved south.

PNW boats have diesel heat, and no AC.

 

[Hippocampus]

Unfortunately still have the ocean bug. Did coastal for decades while still working. Happiest out of helicopter range or at least off the shelf. Wife is ok with passage making as well. Her thoughts on the loop is that she’d like to do it but if our only goal is to explore the US further we’d get a RV and not be limited to the waterways. We probably still have at least one more big trip in us. Be a goof to be able to fly two OCC pendants. One we have for sail and another for power. When we list trips what comes up are transatlantic to North Sea and French canals. Transatlantic to eastern Med., the great U (down to Panama then up to Alaska), Great Lakes and Canadian Maritimes .

 

[O C Diver]

While seeing the Great Lakes by RV is better than not seeing them at all, it's a very different experience by boat. Traveling the western have of the Erie canal by boat was an amazing experience. There are sections where the canal is elevated above the land giving you an amazing view of the fields and orchards of western New York state. Not going to replicate that in an RV. Doing it by boat also gives you a history lesson of that part of the country. Before the tractor trailer, before the train, everything traveled by boat. An amazing story to see as you travel through the heart land.

Ted

 

[Jeff F]

Can't argue with that! I've been reading your posts with great interest. Thanks for sharing the process.

A bit off topic, but I've met a number of older couples happily cruising inland waterways on maxi trailerable boats like the Ranger Tugs. Some of them had impressive boating resumes, and all had downsized from larger boats.

Just planting the seed for your next next boat. Sort of a cross between RV and looping. Best of all worlds.

Unfortunately still have the ocean bug. Did coastal for decades while still working. Happiest out of helicopter range or at least off the shelf. Wife is ok with passage making as well. Her thoughts on the loop is that she’d like to do it but if our only goal is to explore the US further we’d get a RV and not be limited to the waterways. We probably still have at least one more big trip in us. Be a goof to be able to fly two OCC pendants. One we have for sail and another for power. When we list trips what comes up are transatlantic to North Sea and French canals. Transatlantic to eastern Med., the great U (down to Panama then up to Alaska), Great Lakes and Canadian Maritimes .

 

[ScottC]

While seeing the Great Lakes by RV is better than not seeing them at all, it's a very different experience by boat. Traveling the western have of the Erie canal by boat was an amazing experience. There are sections where the canal is elevated above the land giving you an amazing view of the fields and orchards of western New York state. Not going to replicate that in an RV. Doing it by boat also gives you a history lesson of that part of the country. Before the tractor trailer, before the train, everything traveled by boat. An amazing story to see as you travel through the heart land.

Ted

As an aside...
I can remember one disadvantage to an elevated canal from when I was living in the area.


https://www.rochestersubway.com/topics/2014/12/canal-break/

 

[Hippocampus]

Chatted with the bride and several close friends. Will look at skinny water boats. Know GB from doing deliveries for a friend years ago. We brought them from Connecticut to Plymouth to be delivered to new owners. Did like the Europa 42 but experience very limited. Current thinking is if 4’ is good 3’ or even 2’ would be better so multis enter the list as well along with boats that can actually dry out. Wondering how much you gain going from full displacement to semi in the real world? Once coastal you never really need to run from weather. You just don’t go out that day. Wife likes the layout and open decks of the Coot. There’s a very recent one for sale. Keeps money making money so a big benefit compared with a N. But still allows the occasional short passage. Any thoughts folks?

 

[O C Diver]

Chatted with the bride and several close friends. Will look at skinny water boats. Know GB from doing deliveries for a friend years ago. We brought them from Connecticut to Plymouth to be delivered to new owners. Did like the Europa 42 but experience very limited. Current thinking is if 4’ is good 3’ or even 2’ would be better so multis enter the list as well along with boats that can actually dry out. Wondering how much you gain going from full displacement to semi in the real world? Once coastal you never really

need to run from weather. You just don’t go out that day. Wife likes the layout and open decks of the Coot. There’s a very recent one for sale. Keeps money making money so a big benefit compared with a N. But still allows the occasional short passage. Any thoughts folks?

I would focus between 3 and 4' draft with a maximum of 5'. In the size range your looking for, less than 3' is probably unrealistic.

If you plan to travel always in displacement, full displacement, semi displacement, or planning doesn't much matter. The real downside to anything but full displacement is the percentage or boat used for engine room, larger fuel tanks, and smaller water and waste tanks. This won't matter as much on well designed boats.

Regarding the weather, never say never. While you may be closer to safe harbors when coastal cruising, afternoon storms pop up and you may find yourself hours from getting off the ocean, Chesapeake bay, Delaware bay, Great Lakes, or crossing the Northeast corner of the Gulf of Mexico.

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

Chatted with the bride and several close friends. Will look at skinny water boats. Know GB from doing deliveries for a friend years ago. We brought them from Connecticut to Plymouth to be delivered to new owners. Did like the Europa 42 but experience very limited. Current thinking is if 4’ is good 3’ or even 2’ would be better so multis enter the list as well along with boats that can actually dry out. Wondering how much you gain going from full displacement to semi in the real world? Once coastal you never really need to run from weather. You just don’t go out that day. Wife likes the layout and open decks of the Coot. There’s a very recent one for sale. Keeps money making money so a big benefit compared with a N. But still allows the occasional short passage. Any thoughts folks?

Dave Gerr, of Propeller Book fame, has spent a lot of time designing shoal draft passagemakers. Worth a read.

http://www.gerrmarine.com/Beachable_Boats/Roseate-PassageMaker.pdf

Protected props are a really nice feature. My friend's Horizon Power Cat 52 draws about the same as my boat does - just under 4-feet. Even with a decent skeg, he feels his props are exposed. As a result, there's a lot of skinny water I'll gleefully venture into that he won't.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Very interested in the Summer Kyle design. Have reluctance doing anything in wood although cold molded covered strip plank seems reasonable.
Anybody have experience with cold molded wood.?
Anybody have experience with the Coot 38?

Have 35+ years of sailing experience. Much more worried coastal than on passage. Only time I was caught in sustained force 8 was on a simple delivery from Southwest Harbor Maine to Duxbury Mass. Have seen more pop up Tstorm than fingers and toes with 50+ coastal. Rather do line squalls than Tstorms. Think given who you’re dancing with at the time weather is more of a concern coastal than when in blue water. Even without a weather router your recording barometer, eyes and radar give you plenty of warning when to button up when offshore. Throw out the Jordan series drogue, button up, lie on the sole and wait it out. That’s not an option coastal.

 

[psneeld]

The vast majority of inshore cruising (East Coast) and looping has weather access that gives plenty of advance warning of severe stuff...if only... that the days stability index is so bad rapidly developing T-storms could pop up and you make the decision to press on or stay put depending on what waters lie ahead.


With inshore cruising..just always look ahead for bailout points.

 

[Hippocampus]

Sailing from pigs and sows to point Judith. Clear day, 10-15kt. Both NOAA and passage weather had nothing to say. West of Block got knocked down. Was on a Pearson 424. Broad reach with all rags up.?microburst?white squall.
Was off Greenport headed to hell’s gate. Late evening. Stars out. No clouds. Benign weather report and had listened several times throughout the day. Pop up TStorm lasting maybe 20-30 minutes then gone. No warning on radar.
Can report other examples. They say for New England “if you don’t like the weather just wait 5 minutes “ but many areas have seasonal unpredictable weather. Now that marine weather reporting is degraded by decreases in airplane and ship traffic and is more uncertain due to climate change the confidence I had as little as 2-5 years ago has degraded as well.

 

[Jeff F]

Sailing from pigs and sows to point Judith. Clear day, 10-15kt. Both NOAA and passage weather had nothing to say. West of Block got knocked down. Was on a Pearson 424. Broad reach with all rags up.?microburst?white squall.
Was off Greenport headed to hell’s gate. Late evening. Stars out. No clouds. Benign weather report and had listened several times throughout the day. Pop up TStorm lasting maybe 20-30 minutes then gone. No warning on radar.
Can report other examples. They say for New England “if you don’t like the weather just wait 5 minutes “ but many areas have seasonal unpredictable weather. Now that marine weather reporting is degraded by decreases in airplane and ship traffic and is more uncertain due to climate change the confidence I had as little as 2-5 years ago has degraded as well.

Sure. But you're far less threatened on a power boat than a sail boat.

I got completely whacked recently on Lake Ontario in my Mainship 34. 5 knots to probably 45 with very little warning. I thought I was going to lose my bimini. I hate to think of what that would have been like in my Mount Gay 30 sailboat. It would have been gnarly and probably expensive.

Anyway, point is as long as seas aren't threatening you're not likely to be bothered by that kind of weather even in a boat like mine.

 

[Hippocampus]

The old saws are:

It’s not the wind that kills you...it’s the waves.

It’s not the ocean that sinks you .....it’s the hard edges.

It’s not the boat that fails you..... it’s the crew.



Think those old saws are true for all small vessels.

 

[psneeld]

Spent 23 years in the USCG...mostly as a helo pilot from the Arctic to the Antarctic...then 15 years as a commercial captain.


Sure... 40 years ago weather forecasting wasn't all that bad, but not great...but the dissemination of it wasn't there yet to the average boater.


Now, especially for coastal cruising or looping it shouldn't surprise one except maybe on a rare occasion, but nothing a prepared boat can't handle. As posted..."its not the boat that fails you..... it's the crew".

 

[FF]

"Anybody have experience with cold molded wood.?"

In 1966 my 45 ft try (Hedly Nichol VOYAGER) was constructed of cold molded Thames PLy. The 1/4 inch ply has 5 layers & went in 3 layers for the center hull, the amas were 5/16 in two layers , all was covered in Dynel outer layer.

Was strong and quite fair no problems in the Carib,but hard to get a slip in New England.

 

[psneeld]

Quite a few boats are cold molded...though not compared to so many production glass boats.


Many North Carolina sportfish boats are cold molded and very nicely made.


I think our member Si in NC built one for himself.