LiFePo house battery

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Cargile

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2022
Messages
226
Vessel Name
Quasimodo
Vessel Make
Cargile Cutter
Thought this would be simple but not as far as finding help. Maybe I am making it more complicated then it is? I want to change my house bank, 2 6v golf cart batteries to 1 100 AH LiFePO battery w BMS. My 50 year old trailer trawler has a 35 amp Prestolite alternator (original). The starter battery is a 900 CCA lead acid battery turning over a Ford 302 gasser. Charging current from the alternator is managed by a Blue Seas ACR. I believe my 2 bank 10 amp Guest Marinco charger will not work with LiFePo batteries so I am prepared to buy a charger and whatever for LiFePo battery. Also not sure if the Blue Seas ACR can manage the two different battery types. Also not sure if the alternator is up to speed for the job. On other sites I have been told to get a Renogy DC-DC charger and it will handle the lead acid starter and the LiFePo house. That, I believe covers charging with the alternator as a power source underway. Charging on shoe power/genset is another topic I will look at later. In short, I guess I am looking for a list of equipment and a wiring diagram. Sweet Jesus a wiring diagram would be nice. Thanks
 
It appears that you currently have a system that meets your needs. Unless there is an environmental reason to change battery chemistry from FLA to LPO it appears your not gaining any increased capacity as a couple 225 AH GC batteries should have a little more usable energy then the 100 AH LPO.

If you want to go to the LPO battery a dc to dc charger is the best way assuming you have a single engine and alternator. Loose the ACR, feed the existing charging sources into the FLA starting bank and wire the house loads into the LPO bank, the let the DC to DC charger charge the LPO battery.

With your proposed setup I don't think your gaining much, as it doesn't take advantage of LPO batteries
 
Ka sea ta
Does the DC2DC charger have an off switch if the engine is not running so the full start battery does not continue to charge the house bank?
 
It appears that you currently have a system that meets your needs. Unless there is an environmental reason to change battery chemistry from FLA to LPO it appears your not gaining any increased capacity as a couple 225 AH GC batteries should have a little more usable energy then the 100 AH LPO.

If you want to go to the LPO battery a dc to dc charger is the best way assuming you have a single engine and alternator. Loose the ACR, feed the existing charging sources into the FLA starting bank and wire the house loads into the LPO bank, the let the DC to DC charger charge the LPO battery.

With your proposed setup I don't think your gaining much, as it doesn't take advantage of LPO batteries

Yep!
 
It appears that you currently have a system that meets your needs. Unless there is an environmental reason to change battery chemistry from FLA to LPO it appears your not gaining any increased capacity as a couple 225 AH GC batteries should have a little more usable energy then the 100 AH LPO.
If you want to go to the LPO battery a dc to dc charger is the best way assuming you have a single engine and alternator. Loose the ACR, feed the existing charging sources into the FLA starting bank and wire the house loads into the LPO bank, the let the DC to DC charger charge the LPO battery.
With your proposed setup I don't think your gaining much, as it doesn't take advantage of LPO batteries




Thanks for the advice/help but......power available currently falls short of needs. Also the boat has a port list. I believe it is the 150 lbs of lead acid batteries I added in the aft port engine space. Plan is to remove them and move the house battery forward maybe 6 feet and mid ship to a space now vacated by a removed holding tank. You assumed 225 AH batteries. They are 110 AH. Optimistically I am looking at a 50% increase in available power with LiFePo. I have been looking at DC to DC chargers. Thanks fore the suggestion. So, a post puberty Airman 1st Class has access to and has published national defense top secret info and I am having a hell of a time finding an electrical wiring diagram for a recreational boat system? Go figure. Frustrated in Florida.
 
Marine How To website May offer some guidance.

Given your 35 amp alternator expanding the battery bank capacity seems a challenge. Possibly you’re short of charging capacity rather than battery capacity at this point.

Did you remove or relocate your holding tank?
 
Ka sea ta
Does the DC2DC charger have an off switch if the engine is not running so the full start battery does not continue to charge the house bank?




My only experience is with the Victron Dc to DC charger, and the input voltage level that the unit will turn on is configurable when setting the unit up. So yes the charger will only turn on when the source battery voltage reaches a user determined level.
 
My only experience is with the Victron Dc to DC charger, and the input voltage level that the unit will turn on is configurable when setting the unit up. So yes the charger will only turn on when the source battery voltage reaches a user determined level.

'source' battery being the start battery? This remains my yet to be satisfied concern. The DC2DC from start to house, the start bat being depleted when at anchor for a couple days.
If 'source' is the house bat, then no worries.

Here is where I am at with LifePO4
Found the ALT saver to protect ALT from a BMS shutdown. Charge LFP (without external reg) from Alternator, then DC2DC to start battery.
Inverter charger to house too. Almost sold on the upgrade.
 
'source' battery being the start battery? This remains my yet to be satisfied concern. The DC2DC from start to house, the start bat being depleted when at anchor for a couple days.
If 'source' is the house bat, then no worries.

Here is where I am at with LifePO4
Found the ALT saver to protect ALT from a BMS shutdown. Charge LFP (without external reg) from Alternator, then DC2DC to start battery.
Inverter charger to house too. Almost sold on the upgrade.


I probably didn't explain the turn on voltage for the dc2dc charger clear enough. The turn on voltage for the Victron dc2dc charger that I have can be set via the app to turn on only when there is a charging level voltage on the the source battery (I.E. 13.5 v) once the charging level voltage is removed the dc2dc charger turns off and isolates the source battery. This is similar to an ACR but not bidirectional... In other words your start battery is isolated from house battery once the charging sources are removed from the start battery.


I wouldn't use a stock regulator to charge a LPO battery bank without an alternator temperature sensor at minimum. In addition the charging characteristics of a internal regulator are not optimal for LPO. At minimum for a LPO bank I think a programmable external regulator with alternator temp sensing is prudent. A dc2dc charger from your port engine could help to reduce the charge time for LPO bank....
 
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I probably didn't explain the turn on voltage for the dc2dc charger clear enough. The turn on voltage for the Victron dc2dc charger that I have can be set via the app to turn on only when there is a charging level voltage on the the source battery (I.E. 13.5 v) once the charging level voltage is removed the dc2dc charger turns off and isolates the source battery. This is similar to an ACR but not bidirectional... In other words your start battery is isolated from house battery once the charging sources are removed from the start battery.
OK, I can see that now, as long as start bat voltage is below set point it will not drain into house.

I wouldn't use a stock regulator to charge a LPO battery bank without an alternator temperature sensor at minimum. In addition the charging characteristics of a internal regulator are not optimal for LPO. At minimum for a LPO bank I think a programmable external regulator with alternator temp sensing is prudent. A dc2dc charger from your port engine could help to reduce the charge time for LPO bank....
Using a stock internal regulator is not ideal but it is workable as long as other charging sources top up the battery later. The LFP does not need to be charged to 100% every time as needed by FLA.

I do not know of a alternator temp sensor that will work with internal regulator, is there one?
:mad: These are the roadblocks to making the move to LFP, too many other working parts need to be replaced or added to.
 
Marine How To website May offer some guidance.
Given your 35 amp alternator expanding the battery bank capacity seems a challenge. Possibly you’re short of charging capacity rather than battery capacity at this point.
Did you remove or relocate your holding tank?


Thank you. On my list of potential gear so far: WIRING DIAGRAM, LiFePo 100 AH battery, Renogy DC to DC charger, Victron Smart Battery Protect, 70 amp alternator w external regulator w temp sensor and a WIRING DIAGRAM.
The holding tank, head and all plumbing was removed an replaced with a Nature's Head.
 
Am I the only one that thinks its ridiculous that the latest bleeding edge battery technology can't be connected to any system without major upgrades and hardware replacement? Could the BMS not simply be programmed for the installation type and be good to go? I mean, they're smart enough to know when to disconnect due to over voltage, under temp, over temp, over current but can't figure out to reduce input current when they reach full charge? I'm hoping the next generation batteries are smarter than this generation.

James
 
Am I the only one that thinks its ridiculous that the latest bleeding edge battery technology can't be connected to any system without major upgrades and hardware replacement?

It can be depending on how your boat was set up

We set ours up 7 years ago with big solar and a Victron multiplus with Genset attached.
No on engine charging

When the AGM died and we went lifepo4, it was 20 minutes to reprogramme the multiplus and solar mppt charger to suit

We still have no on engine charging
To much drama for us to bother with.
 
.


Using a stock internal regulator is not ideal but it is workable as long as other charging sources top up the battery later. The LFP does not need to be charged to 100% every time as needed by FLA.

I think the point he might be getting at, and I could be wrong is a big battery bank be it Lifepo4 or AGM will take many hours to charge at 30 or 40 amps.

We killed off 2 large frame alts connected to AGM simply because the alt ran flat out for as long as the engine ran.
A couple of hours may have been ok, but we do 8+ hours often enough that it was a killer.

My way of thinking is a DC to DC charger will cause the alt to do the same
 
I think the point he might be getting at, and I could be wrong is a big battery bank be it Lifepo4 or AGM will take many hours to charge at 30 or 40 amps.

We killed off 2 large frame alts connected to AGM simply because the alt ran flat out for as long as the engine ran.
A couple of hours may have been ok, but we do 8+ hours often enough that it was a killer.

My way of thinking is a DC to DC charger will cause the alt to do the same
Bolded, yes I have that same thought.

Killed two Alternators charging AGM? I wonder if it was due to the size of the bank you have, smaller bank AGM maybe OK for same ALT.
A lot to digest.
 
Am I the only one that thinks its ridiculous that the latest bleeding edge battery technology can't be connected to any system without major upgrades and hardware replacement?
James


Not exactly accurate. I had to make zero modifications to my system to shift from 1380 ah 24vdc AGMs to 600 ah LFP. I elected to add additional charging capacity to take advantage of LFPs ability to absorb peak current until virtually full, but that was optional. Everything else in the system used to maintain the AGMs remained the same. If you have an existing system that isn't quite up to the task of effectively maintaining an LA bank (like having internally regulated alternators), then sure, if you want to upgrade you should address those deficiencies but that has nothing to do with LFP needing something special.



There seem to be two falsehoods regarding this technology that just don't seem to go away:


1. You can't install LFP without major changes to an existing system.

2. LFP is more dangerous than LA.
 
.............. If you have an existing system that isn't quite up to the task of effectively maintaining an LA bank (like having internally regulated alternators), then sure, if you want to upgrade you should address those deficiencies but that has nothing to do with LFP needing something special.


There seem to be two falsehoods regarding this technology that just don't seem to go away:


1. You can't install LFP without major changes to an existing system.

So which is it? :banghead:
 
In short, I guess I am looking for a list of equipment and a wiring diagram. Sweet Jesus a wiring diagram would be nice. Thanks

Two diagrams are attached.

Given the relatively small size of your system (one G24 FLA for start; and one (or even two) 100AH LFP batteries), you may want to look at Van installs as this is extremely common. Both Renogy and Australian company RedArc (HERE) make a popular DC-DC charger, though the big benefit is they also have an MPPT built-in so can integrate solar charging into the system (solar isn't required to make these work, but heck, even a 50W panel would be helpful). Both have an integral relay so the Blue Sea ACR is no longer needed. Note RedArc has a 20A and 25A output so would protect your 35A Alternator. Smallest Renogy is 30A. I believe they both split the power between two feeds so if you have solar and alternator on a 50A DC-DC charger, solar is limited to 25A; alternator is limited to 25A. But if only alternator, then it gives full 50A.

Despite the RedArc being 2x the cost of Renogy ($550 vs $260), I would strongly recommend against Renogy - their tech support is worse than bad: on the rare instance when they do respond, the information is often incorrect. A good question for them (RedArc tech support) is whether you could keep your existing battery charger, but place on the FLA start battery and use the DC-DC charger to convert to charge your LFP. I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work, but would pay to ask first. Or you could buy a LFP-capable charger and place on your house-bank which would also charge the start battery via the DC-DC charger.

Note, the overall system changes beyond installing the DC-DC charger would be near zero byond crimping new lugs in the positive cable to the house battery (assumes there is existing circuit protection). The ACR can be left in place, or you could remove it and use those connections for the DC-DC charger. So while the RedArc is $550, nothing else is needed.

Attached is a diagram of the RedArc. Hope this helps.

Peter

EDIT - also attached the Renogy wiring diagram since OP asked for a wiring diagram (Renogy Install Manual HERE). Assumes alternator output is connected to the start battery. Install is identical to the RedArc. I have the 50A version of the Renogy product installed in my camper van that I purchased prior to a disasterous DOA event with a Renogy inverter, thus my admonition about Renogy. The Renogy product works fine, but I would never take a chance on Renogy again.

RedarArc DC-DC Charger.jpg

Renogy DC-DC Charger Diagram.jpg
 
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I have the same setup on my boat as the van for the past year and so far so good. I lucked out for the fact that the last owner install 120A alt with an external regulator, a Balmar. Which I highly suggest with temp sensor.

I reading other post about burning out Alts. I bet there was no temp sensor to back down the Alts. Maybe one could not be added.

This setup is very easy to do. Just be sure that the Alt sense wire and the charging wire is mover over to the starting bank if not already. Than install your DC to DC charger. I used two Victron chargers that total 60A on a 800A bank. Remove the ARC/VSR if one is used.

As a precaution and for Cargile, I installed two remote battery switches. My switches are in the engine compartment. Not too hard to get at but if the batteries BMS's shuts down in 3 or 4 seconds I can run off that starting battery. Also this protects that Alt since its only seeing the starting bank and DC to DC charger. One switch kills the house bank and the other parallels the house loads not LFP bank itself since that switch is off. These switches were already there and most likely we all have them. A starting bank switch, a house bank switch and a parallel switch.

Keep in mind that 60A of charging may seam low, but. LFP batteries charge 2 to 4 times faster than AGMs generally speaking.

Now did I do a Major Upgrade, I don't think so. Upgrading the ALT running LFP or AGM is not a bad thing. More so if using AGMs due to the longer charging times. So that may need to be done anyways.
 
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So which is it? :banghead:
Sorry to confuse you Steve, so I'll try to be more clear.


If your existing charging system is put together with zip cord and an alternator from a '56 DeSoto, you have other problems to fix before you think about LFP.


However, if said system doesn't suck, and has the gear found on 95% of all trawlers (like smart regulation, adequate wire size, fuses, etc.) then the idea that you have to make major changes to install LFP or buy dc to dc chargers to make LFP work is an opinion generally offered by people with little knowledge of the subject.


That help?
 
However, if said system doesn't suck, and has the gear found on 95% of all trawlers (like smart regulation, adequate wire size, fuses, etc.) then the idea that you have to make major changes to install LFP or buy dc to dc chargers to make LFP work is an opinion generally offered by people with little knowledge of the subject

Three items here: First, dealing with disparate chemistries (LFP to FLA or AGM - domain of DC-DC chargers). Second, cooking an alternator due to regulation geared towards FLA/AGM. And third, cable size to handle the larger currents, especially since LFP are smaller so more battery will fit into the space where AGM/FLA house bank used to reside.

I agree that if all three things are already in place, LFP are drop-in. Disagree that 95% of the boats already have all three. In fact, I'd guess 5% is a better guess. But since that puts me into the group of people that apparently "have little knowledge of the subject," perhaps you can enlighten further? I don't claim to be an expert, but nor do I consider myself grossly out of touch. What am I missing?

Peter
 
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Three items here: First, dealing with disparate chemistries (LFP to FLA or AGM - domain of DC-DC chargers).
Since I use LA for the starter bank and LFP for house with zero charging issues, a dc-dc charger looks like a solution in search of a problem.

Second, cooking an alternator due to regulation geared towards FLA/AGM.
No cruising boat I have ever seen lacks smart regulation, and all smart regulators I'm familiar with allow you to de-tune the alternator output. Non problem, unless your alternator has internal regulation, in which case isn't suitable for maintaining deep cycle batteries of any chemistry.

And third, cable size to handle the larger currents, especially since LFP are smaller so more battery will fit into the space where AGM/FLA house bank used to reside.
On a depleted LA battery, the first hour or so of charging is at a rate equal to the output of the alternator, so if wire size isn't large enough to handle the current acceptance rate of LFP it is also too small for LA.

I agree that if all three things are already in place, LFP are drop-in. Disagree that 95% of the boats already have all three. In fact, I'd guess 5% is a better guess. But since that puts me into the group of people that apparently "have little knowledge of the subject," perhaps you can enlighten further? I don't claim to be an expert, but nor do I consider myself grossly out of touch. What am I missing?

Peter
If you believe that only 5% of cruising boats have adequate cabling to charge LA or LFP batteries, or smart regulation, then I really don't what to say other than - seriously? And when you say that LFP could be "drop in" I guess I should add another falsehood floating around the subject:

3. All LFP batteries from different manufacturers are interchangeable in terms of suitability for purpose. As in all products, manufacturer standards are a critical part of the buying decision, and not all LFP manufacturers build out a battery with adequate internal cabling or adequate battery management systems. Buy a cheap LFP battery and you'll get what you paid for. Read Rod Collins Marinehowto for recommendations on good vs. not so good LFP batteries.
 
Delphin, you are making a lot of assumptions based on the many boats you have seen. LFP is relative new, which means the vast majority of production boats were not prepared for the new battery. Perhaps in the last 10 years they are. I agree with the 5% of boats in operation are ready for LFP upgrade.
 
Since I use LA for the starter bank and LFP for house with zero charging issues, a dc-dc charger looks like a solution in search of a problem.

No cruising boat I have ever seen lacks smart regulation, and all smart regulators I'm familiar with allow you to de-tune the alternator output. Non problem, unless your alternator has internal regulation, in which case isn't suitable for maintaining deep cycle batteries of any chemistry.

On a depleted LA battery, the first hour or so of charging is at a rate equal to the output of the alternator, so if wire size isn't large enough to handle the current acceptance rate of LFP it is also too small for LA.

If you believe that only 5% of cruising boats have adequate cabling to charge LA or LFP batteries, or smart regulation, then I really don't what to say other than - seriously? And when you say that LFP could be "drop in" I guess I should add another falsehood floating around the subject:

3. All LFP batteries from different manufacturers are interchangeable in terms of suitability for purpose. As in all products, manufacturer standards are a critical part of the buying decision, and not all LFP manufacturers build out a battery with adequate internal cabling or adequate battery management systems. Buy a cheap LFP battery and you'll get what you paid for. Read Rod Collins Marinehowto for recommendations on good vs. not so good LFP batteries.

Your original statement was that 95% of trawlers need little/no upgrades to accomodate LFP. If you're modifying that to be cruisers with proviso that a cruising boat has already made the upgrades, well yea, got me there, but sort of sounds a bit circular. But that's not the OP, and not the vast number of querries on TF and CF.

Your input is counter to the prevailing wisdom out there (wisdom which you belittle), especially the part stating that mixing LFP/FLA chemistries is a non-issue, that a dc-dc charger is a solution seeking a problem. Would appreciate actual URL citations versus a 'go-fetch' to Rod Collins. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to be open to learning.

Peter
 
Three items here: First, dealing with disparate chemistries (LFP to FLA or AGM - domain of DC-DC chargers). Second, cooking an alternator due to regulation geared towards FLA/AGM. And third, cable size to handle the larger currents, especially since LFP are smaller so more battery will fit into the space where AGM/FLA house bank used to reside.

I agree that if all three things are already in place, LFP are drop-in. Disagree that 95% of the boats already have all three. In fact, I'd guess 5% is a better guess. But since that puts me into the group of people that apparently "have little knowledge of the subject," perhaps you can enlighten further? I don't claim to be an expert, but nor do I consider myself grossly out of touch. What am I missing?

Peter


I think this is worth expanding on.


LFP has some differences due to battery behavior of the chemistry.


LFP introduces an BMS which under fault conditions will disconnect the battery. You need to ensure that won't cause damage to other parts of your electrical system.


LFP is typically motivated by a desire to have more battery capacity, which is often linked to a desire to have more inverter capacity. In short, people switching to LFP is typically looking to enlarge (sometimes quite significantly) their whole power system. This drives most of the change in systems, from what I have seen, and it is drive by wanting a larger power system, not because you are switching to LFP. Building a bigger power system using lead batteries will trigger all the same changes as using LFP, with the exception of handling BMS fault condition.


In this context, let's look at the typical changes that people make, or struggle with:


Overloading Alternators: This is partly because you want a higher capacity battery bank, and partly because you are switching to LFP. But as Delfin points out, any big LA bank will be just as capable of cooking an alternator. Most alternators are designed with the assumption that they won't run at full output for very long before the battery bank reaches absorb, and the output demand will drop. They are designed to survive just long enough at full power to reach absorb. With a start bank, this will happen quickly. With a house bank, it will depend on DOD, and size of the bank. It doesn't take long before the alternator can't survive long enough to get to absorb, so anyone implementing a large house bank will likely have already switched to an external regulator that can be manually derated and/or derated based on sensed alternator temperature. LFP does make this problem harder because there is no absorb stage, or at least none to speak of. Charging is balls to the wall right up until they are full.



So if you find yourself somehow needing to regulate alternator output because you don't have an external regulator, understand that it's as much to blame on a larger battery bank as it is LFP. If you already have an external regulator, then this aspect of switching from LA to LFP is trivial.


Different Charge Profiles: LA and LFP have different charge profiles, but so do FLA and AGM. So switching to LFP is really no different than switching from FLA to AGM for your house bank. You will need to charge each bank according to its own rules, or lump them together and compromise one or the other. You pick.


BMS Disconnect: This is unique to LFP, no doubt. But it's also no different than a fuse blowing and disconnecting your house bank. In the later case we live with the risk, but in the former case we get all twiterpated about it. I think a really important thing to remember is that a BMS disconnect is not an end of charge indicator. It's a fault indicator. If you are charging anywhere near the BMS disconnect point, stop doing that. If your BMS is disconnecting, figure out why and fix it. Now I am NOT saying you shouldn't protect against a disconnect, just trying to emphasize that it's a fault condition, not normal operation. With that in mind, there are a variety of solutions, my own favorite being use of a disconnect warning signal from the BMS to turn off the alternator. This is increasingly available, even from so-called drop-in batteries.


So to sum it up, when massive electrical system changes are required, it's probably 80% because you are enlarging your electrical system, and 20% because you are using LFP.
 
So to sum it up, when massive electrical system changes are required, it's probably 80% because you are enlarging your electrical system, and 20% because you are using LFP.

You said it more succinctly and knowledgeably than I did, but in effect, that's the second and third reason I stated (frying alternator, and needing larger cabling....first was dissimilar chemistry). But I of course agree that if a boat's system are already sized and configured properly, no need for an upgrade. I ust think that's pretty rare except for very recent builds.

Question for you TT (and other active Nordhavn owners): Nordhavn's have always had a robust DC system, and were of course built for cruising. How many of them older than, say, 10-years, can just swap-out their AGM battery bank with no other upgrades?

BTW - I took Delfin up on his suggestion to look at MarineHowTo. Author (Rod Collins - a contributor on TF) suggests converting for chemistry is one of two use-cases for a DC-DC charger.

Peter

When to use DC-DC Charger.jpg
 
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Your original statement was that 95% of trawlers need little/no upgrades to accomodate LFP. If you're modifying that to be cruisers with proviso that a cruising boat has already made the upgrades, well yea, got me there, but sort of sounds a bit circular. But that's not the OP, and not the vast number of querries on TF and CF.

Your input is counter to the prevailing wisdom out there (wisdom which you belittle), especially the part stating that mixing LFP/FLA chemistries is a non-issue, that a dc-dc charger is a solution seeking a problem. Would appreciate actual URL citations versus a 'go-fetch' to Rod Collins. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to be open to learning.

Peter


Here is what Victron says about their dc to dc charger:

"The Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Charger can be used as a power supply or as a battery charger. In charger mode the three-state charge algorithm will increase battery life by properly charging the battery."

In other words, if you already have a three stage regulator, the primary utility of this device is unneeded. In other words, a solution in search of a problem. So I guess the question is whether most cruising boats, and by that I mean boats with deep cycle batteries like virtually all cruising boats have, have smart regulators and smart regulated chargers. Regarding chargers, this is what Chesapeake Bay Magazine has to say:


"It might be tempting to buy an inexpensive automobile charger, but that’s not a good idea. They cost less, but they are inappropriate and even dangerous for a permanent marine installation. Fortunately, most marine battery chargers have options to suit each battery chemistry and are programmed as three-stage “smart” chargers."

So, apparently these guys seem to think that programmable smart chargers are the only appropriate type for marine applications, so we're left with the question of whether 3 stage regulators of marine appropriate alternators are common. However, when experts talk about "battery chargers" they aren't just talking about one hanging on the wall, but the alternator itself, which also should have 3 stage charging. In MKBatteries words:

"Perhaps the biggest difference between regular battery chargers and deep cycle chargers is the speed at which they charge. Using a traditional battery charger to recharge your deep cycle battery will not give you the best possible results. This is because excess heat is produced whenever a battery is charging. A deep cycle battery is not designed to handle the rapid charging and extra heat, so it may never reach full capacity. Instead, it will show that it is fully charged long before it actually reaches full capacity."

Based on these comments, if 95% of CF or TF boats lack proper equipment, like 3 stage charging, adequate cabling, etc. to even charge LA batteries, my observation seems reasonable that unless you have an inadequate system to start with, an LFP upgrade requires zero special equipment, even if it requires a different way of thinking about battery use. Once LFP is installed, you may well want to increase charging capacity to take advantage of their current acceptance rate, as I did, but that wasn't necessary to make the switch.

Regarding your perceived difference between a "cruising boat" and a "trawler", all I can say is that since people seem to think that everything that has a cabin is a "trawler", the term is so meaningless that talking about "cruising boats", that is, boats that are used to go some distance and spend days anchoring, seems a more apt description.

Finally, if you still think that there are lots of boats out there with deep cycle batteries (like all cruising boats have) that don't have smart charge regulation, perhaps look to see if you can find either a marine charger or a marine alternator for sale that doesn't feature or require three stage control. I can't, but maybe you can.
 
Here is what Victron says about their dc to dc charger:

"The Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Charger can be used as a power supply or as a battery charger. In charger mode the three-state charge algorithm will increase battery life by properly charging the battery."

[Blue]In other words, if you already have a three stage regulator, the primary utility of this device is unneeded.[/blue] In other words, a solution in search of a problem. So I guess the question is whether most cruising boats, and by that I mean boats with deep cycle batteries like virtually all cruising boats have, have smart regulators and smart regulated chargers. Regarding chargers, this is what Chesapeake Bay Magazine has to say:


"It might be tempting to buy an inexpensive automobile charger, but that’s not a good idea. They cost less, but they are inappropriate and even dangerous for a permanent marine installation. Fortunately, most marine battery chargers have options to suit each battery chemistry and are programmed as three-stage “smart” chargers."

So, apparently these guys seem to think that programmable smart chargers are the only appropriate type for marine applications, so we're left with the question of whether 3 stage regulators of marine appropriate alternators are common. However, when experts talk about "battery chargers" they aren't just talking about one hanging on the wall, but the alternator itself, which also should have 3 stage charging. In MKBatteries words:

"Perhaps the biggest difference between regular battery chargers and deep cycle chargers is the speed at which they charge. Using a traditional battery charger to recharge your deep cycle battery will not give you the best possible results. This is because excess heat is produced whenever a battery is charging. A deep cycle battery is not designed to handle the rapid charging and extra heat, so it may never reach full capacity. Instead, it will show that it is fully charged long before it actually reaches full capacity."

Based on these comments, if 95% of CF or TF boats lack proper equipment, like 3 stage charging, adequate cabling, etc. to even charge LA batteries, my observation seems reasonable that unless you have an inadequate system to start with, an LFP upgrade requires zero special equipment, even if it requires a different way of thinking about battery use. Once LFP is installed, you may well want to increase charging capacity to take advantage of their current acceptance rate, as I did, but that wasn't necessary to make the switch.

Regarding your perceived difference between a "cruising boat" and a "trawler", all I can say is that since people seem to think that everything that has a cabin is a "trawler", the term is so meaningless that talking about "cruising boats", that is, boats that are used to go some distance and spend days anchoring, seems a more apt description.

Finally, if you still think that there are lots of boats out there with deep cycle batteries (like all cruising boats have) that don't have smart charge regulation, perhaps look to see if you can find either a marine charger or a marine alternator for sale that doesn't feature or require three stage control. I can't, but maybe you can.

Now I understand. At least partially - there are some apples and oranges here. When you say 3-stage regulators, I assumed you meant regulators for alternators, not a generic function of a 120/240VAC inverter/charger.

Agree that virtually all boats these days have 3-stage 120/240VAC inverter/charger. chargers........for shore power/generator power. Though LFP settings are still pretty new. As of a year ago, many Xantrex models were not compatible with LFP but were indeed 3-stage. But importantly for this discussion, on-grid chargers are typically included in an inverter/charger device and direct attached to a battery bank - cable distance is minimized so agree, thats not a problem of ciurse. Until fairly recently, few boats had more than about 75a of charging power, even now 120a is at the upper end for most 3kw watt inverter/chargers, likely the most common size for new installs on the typical TF boat.

What I was referring to was off-grid/underway - alternator driven. While not rare, going above 120a on a single Alternator was not overly common but is becoming much more so with acceptance of LFP. External regulation remains rare but growing. Expectation for off-grid power is growing fast so battery banks are getting bigger and need for power generation to suit (the crux of TTs post).

Bottom line is TT put it well but I'll rephrase slightly. If goal is like-for-like swap of watts (power), you're right - no need for massive upgrades (though I still disagree about need for DC-DC charger for chemistry - and i disagree with your anslysis of the Victron quote where you conclude a 3-phase charger is superfluous: if the start battery (FLA/AGM) is charged from the LFP house, giving it 3-stage charge profile is still desired). But that's not what's driving people to change- they want more power and that requires more robust infrastructure.

Peter
 
round and round we go.

If only a DC2DC charger can have an input from a non external regulated ALT, then the DC2DC charger can be the regulator for the chosen battery bank and ALT.
Too simple and already said cannot do that, it must come off a start battery.

TT makes a good point that it is the high rate of charge a large bank demands that can fry an alternator regardless of chemistry.
 
Question for you TT (and other active Nordhavn owners): Nordhavn's have always had a robust DC system, and were of course built for cruising. How many of them older than, say, 10-years, can just swap-out their AGM battery bank with no other upgrades?


I think most would be a pretty straight forward swap. And when they are not, it's because significant power system upgrades are being done as part of the project.
 

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