Finally got the new big lithium batteries

[Barking Sands]

Recieved these yesterday. Bluetooth, self heating, Victron Comm and huge charge and discharge capacities. 4 comm ports of varying types. Cost was $1199 each and you can find a 10% discount code without much effort. I plan to hook these up to the Victron Multiplus II Inverter/charger and see how they interface and display on the Cerbo GX screen. Also found out the Cerbo GX should interface into my Garmin 923Xsv with both N2k and the Garmin ethernet network cable. Ill try all that in the next few weeks and see how it goes.

 

[ksanders]

The price keeps coming down and the capacity keeps going up.

I have a FLA bank 840 amp hours, and I generally want to use half that.
The bank cost around $2K a couple years ago and weighs approx 500 pounds.

Today you are posting a bank with approx the same capacity for daily use at 600AH. The cost is roughly the same as my FLA bank, and the weight is probably 1/4

 

[Jeff F]

I'm sure they'll give good service. I have 2x300ah and have been very happy.

Nice to see features and price improving, and a 1c charge/discharge rating is impressive. I paid about the same for my dumb batteries 18 months ago.

 

[tiltrider1]

The price keeps coming down and the capacity keeps going up.

I have a FLA bank 840 amp hours, and I generally want to use half that.
The bank cost around $2K a couple years ago and weighs approx 500 pounds.

Today you are posting a bank with approx the same capacity for daily use at 600AH. The cost is roughly the same as my FLA bank, and the weight is probably 1/4

I switched from 8 L16 FLA (1400Ah, 1,000 lbs) to 4 LiFePO4 260Ah (1040 Ah, 260 lbs). Cost now for high quality FLA was $350 a battery. Paid $630 a battery delivered for the LiFePO4.

 

[PhilPB]

What's the warranty on these? Sounds like a good price. I will probably need to change out my house batteries within the year

 

[Barking Sands]

What's the warranty on these? Sounds like a good price. I will probably need to change out my house batteries within the year

Warranty is 11 years but I think that's several years of direct replacement and then some prorated. I was just looking for the details but they have a new website and it appears some info has not made it over yet.

They have a plastic case 460 ah battery with Victron comm and NMEA2000 comm coming in December.

 

[PhilPB]

I have sla's now as they came with the boat a couple years ago. When I replace it will either be agm or lithium. I know my charger will do agm but doubt it will charge lithium

 

[Don L]

I have sla's now as they came with the boat a couple years ago. When I replace it will either be agm or lithium. I know my charger will do agm but doubt it will charge lithium

AGM or LFP, not even a fair fight really.

And yes you charger will do LFP if it can do AGM. "Smart" battery chargers aren't really very smart and you can use any setting that is less than the LFP BMS high voltage shutdown.

 

[rslifkin]

I like what I'm seeing with the new Epoch products. Would be nice if I could find the manuals on their site, but if multiple batteries communicate between the BMSes well and talk to the Victron stuff, these are a likely candidate for the next time I need batteries. I'll have to make a few changes to alternator charging for LFP, but heated batteries resolve one of my big concerns (powering up and working on the boat during winter storage).

The big thing I see is that they didn't just use the 8D form factor like a lot of drop ins do. One of the good spaces I have for batteries will hold 4x L16, or 4x J185 for lead. It'll hold 3 of these (giving similar total capacity and more usable). But if I were looking at the 8D form factor, that same space would only hold a single battery (with lots of wasted space). If they made these a bit taller and narrower it would be even better (I could fit 4 in that case), but it's one of the better drop in form factors I've seen already.

 

[slowgoesit]

AGM or LFP, not even a fair fight really.

And yes you charger will do LFP if it can do AGM. "Smart" battery chargers aren't really very smart and you can use any setting that is less than the LFP BMS high voltage shutdown.

Don, I'm going to have to disagree with your statement above. Perhaps it depends on the make/model charger, for example, the Xantrex charger that came with our boat had an AGM profile that was no where close to what our LiFePO4 batteries required. Also, some Victron battery chargers, even ones still currently sold models, do not have LiFePO4 charging profiles, and the AGM profiles they do have will NOT play well with LiFePO4.

And that is not even addressing using currently installed alternators/regulators when changing over to LiFePO4. Our existing alternator, although suitable for AGM, is NOT suitable for our LiFePO4 batteries. It is in the process of being replaced with a high output LiFePO4 capable alternator, with external voltage regulator, which has a generic LiFePO4 profile, but can also be tailored to specific LiFePO4 manufacturer's requirements.

Takeaway: Each installation is unique! Due diligence and care needs to be taken to ensure that your modification/installation is researched both for compatibility of individual components, as well as that all those individual components will play well TOGETHER when placed into service.

Failure to do the above, or to innocently believe "manufacturer's" statements and promises, or the word of internet aces, can at a minimum lead to $$$$ mistakes, and at worst to damage to, or loss of your boat.

If you are not properly conversant with the technologies involved, please do not attempt a LiFePO4 conversion.

 

[PhilPB]

AGM or LFP, not even a fair fight really.

And yes you charger will do LFP if it can do AGM. "Smart" battery chargers aren't really very smart and you can use any setting that is less than the LFP BMS high voltage shutdown.

I have a NOCO Gen3 now. According to their website it will not charge LFP. You had me hoping there for a minute.

From NOCO website for the Gen3:
Battery Chemistries
Suitable for Wet Cell (Flooded), Gel Cell, Calcium, AGM, Enhanced Flooded Battery or any Maintenance-Free Battery

 

[Don L]

Don, I'm going to have to disagree with your statement above. Perhaps it depends on the make/model charger, for example, the Xantrex charger that came with our boat had an AGM profile that was no where close to what our LiFePO4 batteries required. Also, some Victron battery chargers, even ones still currently sold models, do not have LiFePO4 charging profiles, and the AGM profiles they do have will NOT play well with LiFePO4.

Why do you say this? AGM charging to 14.4V is pretty standard and that is what the manufacturer of my LFP say to charge to. My battery charger has 2 AGM settings, one goes to 14.4 and one goes to 14.1. And there there are GEL battery settings and one of those goes to 13.8V.

Far as I am concerned all that matters is that the charger doesn't try to exceed the charge voltage the manufacturer says. If you use a GEL setting to 13.8V what is the problem with the battery "only" maybe getting to 95-98%?

And yes I directly asked my manufacturer this question.

I also never leave my charger on. For me it is a short term thing I only do when needed.

 

[SteveK]

Don, can your float be turned off?
Float charge is common with wet batteries to maintain, but not all LFP like float.

 

[Mambo42]

Why do you say this? AGM charging to 14.4V is pretty standard and that is what the manufacturer of my LFP say to charge to. My battery charger has 2 AGM settings, one goes to 14.4 and one goes to 14.1. And there there are GEL battery settings and one of those goes to 13.8V.

Far as I am concerned all that matters is that the charger doesn't try to exceed the charge voltage the manufacturer says. If you use a GEL setting to 13.8V what is the problem with the battery "only" maybe getting to 95-98%?

And yes I directly asked my manufacturer this question.

I also never leave my charger on. For me it is a short term thing I only do when needed.

The big difference between AGM en LiFePO4 when it comes to charging is that AGM will charge at full capacity until e.g. 95 % and then it will go into a lower charge rate.
A lithium battery can accept full charge until 100 % and then switches off instantly. If the charger is not cut off at that time you will get a huge power surge through your whole system in your boat, potentially blowing up lots of equipment.
So yes, you will have to change the charge parameters of the charger when you switch to lithium. If you don't do that you run a huge risk.

 

[Don L]

Don, can your float be turned off?
Float charge is common with wet batteries to maintain, but not all LFP like float.

No. I never leave it on and allow it to go into float. But I could if I set it to a GEL setting with 13.6V.

But I float them most days during sunlight while on solar.

 

[Simi 60]

No. I never leave it on and allow it to go into float. But I could if I set it to a GEL setting with 13.6V.

But I float them most days during sunlight while on solar.

From what I read it's safe enough
But expect shorter lifespan of cells due to poor treatment.

 

[Don L]

The big difference between AGM en LiFePO4 when it comes to charging is that AGM will charge at full capacity until e.g. 95 % and then it will go into a lower charge rate.
A lithium battery can accept full charge until 100 % and then switches off instantly. If the charger is not cut off at that time you will get a huge power surge through your whole system in your boat, potentially blowing up lots of equipment.
So yes, you will have to change the charge parameters of the charger when you switch to lithium. If you don't do that you run a huge risk.

Say what? You think if the charger gets to 14.4V on LFP and holds it then for 1 hour and then drops into float things will blow up?????????????

I have been operating my batteries this way for 10 months.

I never said you didn't have to change you parameters. I said you can use a battery charger with a GEL/AGM setting as long as the voltage is within the acceptable parameters. When I got mine LFP I changed the alternator regulator settings, the solar charge settings, and the AC battery charger settings (by changing the type).

People made it so hard sounding, but in the end LFP is easy and no harder than any other battery type. People can over engineer it and turn it into a science project, but you don't have to.

 

[Don L]

From what I read it's safe enough
But expect shorter lifespan of cells due to poor treatment.

Why?

Are you on solar and LFP? If so what do you do once the batteries are charged?

 

[Don L]

You know what? This thread is/was about the difference between expensive Battleborn type drop in LFPs verse the cheap ones.

I am going to stop and just say the answer is marketing.

 

[Simi 60]

Why?

Because those that know more than me say so

Are you on solar and LFP? If so what do you do once the batteries are charged?

Yes
Once the batteries are charged, the mppt shuts off supply

 

[Don L]

Because those that know more than me say so

post a link

 

[Simi 60]

post a link

I researched for months before building ours
There is no one link
But the general consensus from those who run big Lifepo4 banks and have done for a decade or more is........

Charger shuts down at pre set voltage
Float set to zero
BMS is there a a secondary failsafe

Fill your boots
https://diysolarforum.com/

 

[Don L]

Well I also researched and didn't find that.

If you read something on the internet that DOESN'T make it true. If you can't support it it is just an internet statement.

 

[Simi 60]

Well I also researched and didn't find that.

If you read something on the internet that DOESN'T make it true. If you can't support it it is just an internet statement.

Good oh
You do you're thing - I'll do mine......along with countless others.

I guess they all programme their chargers for sh1ts and giggles

https://www.google.com/search?q=cha...rime/2#sbfbu=1&pi=charger programming lifepo4

 

[Barking Sands]

Well I also researched and didn't find that.

If you read something on the internet that DOESN'T make it true. If you can't support it it is just an internet statement.

I have read both and am still learning. But it may also depend on the specific charger. I have charged various Lifepo4 batts on my bench with a standard old school battery charger. Worked like a charm. I just monitored it manually and stopped the charge when it approached 100%. I also used a more sophisticated charger that had an AGM setting. That seemed to work well and charged the battery to full in the time frame expected when monitoring amps going in. That suggests, for whatever reason, there was no absorption phase or float since current remained a constant 75 amps. Only the voltage crept up. But never enough to overvolt the BMS.

There are many types of chargers that use 2, 3 or 4 stages and several chemistries. Some probably work ok...some not.

It also matters that a house bank is constant use and under load. Unlike say...a golf cart set up that only gets charged after use and is never under load during charging. Take a simple 2 stage charger that has only bulk and float. I doubt a lead acid charger in bulk mode would harm a Lifepo4 battery when charging in any way. And if it ever gets to float, the couple of amps going in is likely just supplementing consumed power of the load and not charging anything.

My first Lifepo4 batteries on my golf cart were the overpriced Dakota lithium 12 volt 100 ah in series. Overpriced but decent enough batteries. Dakota came out with a memo that stated an AGM battery charger could be used if needed but a specific lithium charger is preferred.

I have also noted that some lithium specific chargers will charge to a voltage that is VERY close to the upper voltage limit set into the BMS. So much so that some chargers would set off the battery overvolt protection occasionally at the very top of the charge, and other times the charger would shut off. This was seen on different battery models and different model chargers. I think that implies some manufacturers have tight BMS parameters for max voltage to ensure advertised cycle life. That along with many manufacturers using 105+ ah cells and calling the battery a 100ah battery, slightly derating capacity by tightening max charge voltage, again to ensure longevity. I know Epoch has a very tight setting for max charge voltage. So much so that depending on the stand alone charger used it will take the voltage to the maximum and the charge mosfet will shut down and you will get a red overvolt warning on the app. This also, as per Epoch, is normal and indicates a full charge. They will actually be changing this red warning into something a bit less alarming. Possibly a green lettered "full Charge/Overvolt" since some have become fearful by the red caution.

It is my opinion though that a charger meant for Lifepo4 should be used and even then if it has settable parameters should probably be checked and adjusted as you watch your system in use. May not need or want to charge to 100%, but it should get high enough so that the top balancing of the BMS can do its thing.

I still have to get the details on these particular batteries to input the settings into the Victron. I will be setting max voltage of all charging avenues below the BMS max of course.

Here is a decent article:
https://enerdrive.com.au/2017/11/29/can-i-charge-my-lithium-battery-with-a-lead-acid-charger/

 

[twistedtree]

The issue with Float has to do with the Float voltage setting, and more inportantly whether or not there is on-going charge current. It's not a simple Float or don't Float question, but it's also not very complicated, and is just a matter of setting the Float voltage correctly.


With lead batteries the Float voltage is set higher than the battery's resting voltage such that a small charge current continues. That works well for lead.


With LFP the Float voltage needs to be set equal or a bit below the battery's resting voltage such that there is NO on-going charge current. That maintains the battery at 100% SOC (or less depending on the float voltage), yet allows the charger(s) to carry any on-going house power loads.


The problem is if your charger doesn't have programmable charger parameters, or if you don't set them correctly, and there is an on-going charge current. If you can't set up your charger as needed, then you need to disconnect it once charge is complete.

 

[Don L]

so........................

My non lithium charger has an AGM program to charge to 14.1 and float at 13.4, it also has a 14.4/13.8. It has others but those 2 seem the best for my batteries charging specs and I don't keep them on float anyway and have only used the battery charger about twice the last 5 months.

You people who went out and got a "lithium" charger, what does it do?

But I have a more pointed thread drift question: Why did you even buy LFP batteries if you are going to be running the battery charger all the time and it is going into float? I use my charger mostly when cruising and on anchor when I need to run generator once in a while to charge.

 

[rslifkin]

so........................

My non lithium charger has an AGM program to charge to 14.1 and float at 13.4, it also has a 14.4/13.8. It has others but those 2 seem the best for my batteries charging specs and I don't keep them on float anyway and have only used the battery charger about twice the last 5 months.

You people who went out and got a "lithium" charger, what does it do?

But I have a more pointed thread drift question: Why did you even buy LFP batteries if you are going to be running the battery charger all the time and it is going into float? I use my charger mostly when cruising and on anchor when I need to run generator once in a while to charge.

That sounds like your charger has a program that happens to be suitable for LFP. Some chargers will, some won't. It also depends on how long it will stay in absorb at the higher voltage vs how long an absorb cycle your LFP batteries recommend.

If you're only charging occasionally from shore or generator power, then the charger doesn't have to be as perfectly matched. But for plenty of people, they may use the boat for a few weeks at a time, but then it sits on shore power for a few weeks until the next trip, etc. In those cases, you'd want a more optimal charging setup.

In my case, when we're not traveling I could leave the boat unplugged and solar will do just fine keeping the batteries charged, fridge cold, etc. between uses of the boat. But I leave the boat plugged in anyway, as then the water heater stays hot, and if it's particularly hot or cold outside I can leave heat or A/C on to avoid the boat getting too cold, or being 100 degrees and humid inside.

 

[Don L]

That sounds like your charger has a program that happens to be suitable for LFP. Some chargers will, some won't. It also depends on how long it will stay in absorb at the higher voltage vs how long an absorb cycle your LFP batteries recommend.

Of it matters if the charger has a close enough setting to spec'd. I never intended to suggest that someone with a 20+ year "dumb" 1/no setting charger doesn't need to get a different for lithium. But they should have done that long ago.

Nothing I have read says that lithium can not handle being at 14.1-14.4 for the hour or so that MOST chargers would do at absorption on an AGM setting before dropping to float and stay there. Isn't that the same as people who believe there is a need for "top balancing"?

Here is what Battleborn says
"We recommend a bulk and absorption voltage of 14.4 V. A float is unnecessary, since li-ion batteries do not leak charge, but a floating voltage under 13.6 V is fine."

Here is what Canbat says
"In order to fully charge a 12V LiFePO4 battery, a charger with a voltage of 14V to 14.6V is required. Most AGM battery chargers are within that range and they would be compatible with Canbat lithium batteries. If you have a charger with a lower voltage, it may still charge the battery, but it won't charge it to 100%."

Here is what Dakota says
"All Dakota Lithium batteries should be charged using a LiFePO4 compatible charger like any in this collection. SLA or lead acid chargers will reduce the performance and lifespan of the battery. Specifically lead battery chargers use a lower voltage that will only fill 80% of a lithium battery, while also stressing the lithium chemistry. Lithium chargers charge at a higher voltage, and are programmed to optimize the lithium chemistry for a longer life. Lithium chargers also allow for a charging time that is 5X faster then lead acid, as fast as a 1 hr charge time (1C)."

Lets look at this statement some:
1- "Specifically lead battery chargers use a lower voltage that will only fill 80% of a lithium battery, while also stressing the lithium chemistry." - Why would it only be 80% is the battery charger hits the same voltage spec??? What is this mystery stress and why would a lard acid battery charger make a difference??

2- "Lithium chargers charge at a higher voltage, and are programmed to optimize the lithium chemistry for a longer life" - what is this "higher voltage as most FLA charger charge to an even higher voltage of 14.6+

3-"Lithium chargers also allow for a charging time that is 5X faster then lead acid, as fast as a 1 hr charge time (1C)." - How does this mystery 5x faster happen unless the charger has 5x the capacity. A regular battery charger will put out its' full amp rating till the battery stops accepting it and LFP is no different.

So I easily found 3 manufacturers basically saying an AGM etc. setting on a "modern" charger are just fine. I tried to find what manufacturers of "lithium chargers" say is different than an AGM/GEL/lead battery setting in the correct voltage specs and gave up. If someone else what to tracks down and find a couple that say that is great, post it.

 

[rslifkin]

I agree, in most cases it'll work fine. Just with the caveat of "make sure you know what the charger in question actually does" before trying it. In particular temperature compensation could be an issue if the charger has it but doesn't provide a way to disable it.