Diesel Spill

[ctjstr]

I will probably cross post this on another boating site I frequent, so apologies if you see it twice,

So, I'm putting this out in the hope a person or two might pick up a hint.

We took "Satisfaction" our 4788 Bayliner out for a couple days, just cuz. Weather was supposed to be not horrible and not much is crowded, so why not.

We decided to run up to Kingston, which for non Puget Sounders is a pleasant marina northwest of Seattle. Its close to town, so easy to walk around, great place for the dogs to chase frisbee and normally, they even have a couple electric cars that marina guests can use. they work hard. Good place.

It was cool enough so that I left the Webasto Hydronic heat system going. Woke up to marina staff knocking on the boat telling us we were leading diesel.

To make a long story short, the diesel for the heater was plumbed out of one tank, with a return to the other tank. I had no idea, which is my fault. As we all know there are countless systems of all kinds on boats and I simply neglected to trace out the fuel lines to figure out where they went. During the course of the night, the heater pulled enough fuel out of one tank with surplus going to the other, so that sometime in the morning, the receiving tank filled up and fuel started dumping out the vent, into the water. That tank had not been very close to full, and after chatting with the folks at Sure Marine I realized that the pump used for the heater moves a LOT of fuel.

So, we wake up to a LOT of action. Marina Staff flooding the slip and neighboring slips with absorbent material and a cloth type boom. I learned the protocol in about 30 seconds: Call Washington Dept of Ecoloby, Call the Coast Guard, call insurance, and most important, call the marine salvage or clean up guys. Original estimate was less than 10 gallons, but as things evolved, it turned out to be about 20 gallons.

I did find out that if you call Ecology right away, it can be a help, as they have funds to help with reimbursement for clean up. (if you make excuses and act like an ass, amazingly someone forgets to tell you about that) I also found out if you call Coast Guard right away it helps as well. They give you whatever hints they can to help solve the problem, e.g. who to call for what etc. There is also a national reporting center you are supposed to call. If you're proactive and polite (not always easy for me) you'll get what help they can give and hopefully avoid a fine.

What I also found out is that even if you're fully insured, you still need to get on top of things asap. I have Pemco. When I called, I got the "we'll pass it on to an adjuster and you should expect a call within the next couple days" Well, that just does not work. As the coast guard told me, if I had not called someone to get on the salvage by the time they, the coast guard, got on site, they, the coast guard would have called and they told me the price tag would have more than doubled.. So I got on the phone with salvage and after they charged my credit card $5,000.00, they were on the way. Spent a good part of yesterday on the cleanup, and some more time this morning....after they charged my credit card another $6,000. And oh yeah...the marina gave me their bill for their work on clean up, for $1,800.

So 20 gallons of diesel cost me almost $13,000. I should be reimbursed for most of it, but still.

So the lessons I learned.

First, if you have a boat, especially if its diesel and you don't have spill coverage, you're just plain dumb. When something like this happens, you really have no negotiating power. You call right away and they say pay and you pay, unless you want to risk the exxon valdez type of spread and an exponential increase in cost. Its time and material with no upset price and a big retainer before they show up.

Second, I guess even the goofiest stuff can create BIG problems. Who'd have guessed that the heater would dump all this fuel? Who would have guessed that 20 gallons would cause this much mess?

Third, I received kind words time after time from all involved because I didn't try and make excuses and stepped up right away to get things made right even helping to pull the soaked pads up out of the water. I say this only because this does seem to be one of those occasions where not waiting for the system to grind its way to a conclusion actually makes a difference. Hell, the marina even offered me a free extra night if that would help.

Fourth, operator, or rather ownership error, can cause as much of a problem as any broken part.

Firth, the problems associated with a spill seem to grow exponentially with the size of the spill. A gallon or two could have been handled "in house". If this had been over 50 gallons, I'd be looking for a presidential pardon.

What the tough part is would be what if you didn't have 10-15k laying around to cover your goofups, or didn't have a credit card? I'm not sure. I suppose coast guard would have called them and eventually, I'd have a far higher bill.

Hope none of you have the same wake up call next time you spend the night on your boat

toni

 

[Comodave]

It certainly pays to try and be as helpful as possible since you could have gotten fines in addition to the cleanup charges. And the insurance will not pay fines, and they can be enormous. Good luck, hope it works out. No way should any diesel device feed from one tank and return to another...

 

[SteveK]

"No way should any diesel device feed from one tank and return to another..."
I agree with this.
Glad the OP mitigated the spill.

What kind of webasto was it that had a pump that feeds more than it can use?

Did a quick look and the system for a 50 foot boat appears to use 0.4 gal per hour for a 50,000 BTU. what fuel pump was used that could spill 20 gallons while using 5 gallons in about 10 hours, or uses 10 gallons in 20 hours and spills 20 gallons. Guessing there was no crossover to level the tanks

 

[GFC]

That's too bad. It's a good thing they would take a credit card as payment. That should be reimbursable to you from Pemco if you have a "yacht" policy rather than a boat policy.

If Pemco won't reimburse you because their policy doesn't cover it, give a call to Bristol Insurance Group at 206-634-1770. They're right by Lake Union. Ask for Robin. She's been my agent for 25 years and has always treated me well. Tell her Mike from Pasco sent you.

 

[Lepke]

Unless you have a history of pollution, yachts rarely get fined. Commercial operations, expected to maintain higher standards, usually do.

 

[boathealer]

Thanks for sharing - a good reminder for all of us to be vigilant....

 

[Marco Flamingo]

One of my projects is to get my genset working. It, like my 80 hp Lehman, has a return to the starboard tank. The Lehman's return is tiny. If I'm running on the port tank with the return to the starboard, I can't even see an increase in a 10 hour run. The generator (Yanmar 8hp) would likely have a negligible return, but I'd better watch that if I ever get it running.

My prior owner had Dymo label on the fuel tank junction manifold that says "only have one tank open at one time" or something like that. Not sure why that is. Having both open, especially when completely full, would allow them to equalize and seems like it would be good insurance against overfill from a diesel return.

 

[psneeld]

Can't compare engine return fuel by HP, engines type and models can vary wildly. Even rge Lehman 135 supposedly returns a huge amount compared to the 120.

 

[C lectric]

One of my projects is to get my genset working. It, like my 80 hp Lehman, has a return to the starboard tank. The Lehman's return is tiny. If I'm running on the port tank with the return to the starboard, I can't even see an increase in a 10 hour run. The generator (Yanmar 8hp) would likely have a negligible return, but I'd better watch that if I ever get it running.

My prior owner had Dymo label on the fuel tank junction manifold that says "only have one tank open at one time" or something like that. Not sure why that is. Having both open, especially when completely full, would allow them to equalize and seems like it would be good insurance against overfill from a diesel return.

To me it is more important that which ever tank is supplying fuel is also the same one any unused fuel is returned to.

Even with an open crossover line it could be possible to overfill a tank if the return flow is greater than the crossover line can provide especially if the tanks are full.

 

[ctjstr]

"No way should any diesel device feed from one tank and return to another..."
I agree with this.
Glad the OP mitigated the spill.

What kind of webasto was it that had a pump that feeds more than it can use?

Did a quick look and the system for a 50 foot boat appears to use 0.4 gal per hour for a 50,000 BTU. what fuel pump was used that could spill 20 gallons while using 5 gallons in about 10 hours, or uses 10 gallons in 20 hours and spills 20 gallons. Guessing there was no crossover to level the tanks

Its a Webasto Hydronic unit. Do not recall the specific model. Its on the boat. I was stunned about the amount of fuel and that's why I called Sure Marine. After I identified the unit, they were the ones that told me that their units that have two lines: a feed and a separate return, pump a lot of fuel. He was not surprised at all when I told him what happened. I supposed if I had installed the unit, I'd have been more up on fuel usage, but although I've taken it out and to the shop for service, I never thought to ask about fuel usage etc. I just never even gave it a thought. It probably also would have helped if the lines and valves were all marked, which they are not, other than those for the two hinos.

 

[slowgoesit]

I ran across one boat that had the feed line for the generator coming from the tank (selectable to which one you wanted to draw out of), but instead of returning the excess fuel all the way back to the tank, or into a fuel manifold, it just went back to the feed line via a "T" just prior to the fuel pump! Seemed to work just fine. Of course if the reason for pumping excess fuel is to use it for cooling, than that's probably not a good idea!

In a previous boat, a GB36, I "ran out" of fuel while still having 300 gallons on board. I was new to the boat, and was drawing fuel out of one tank (that I had checked, and verified had plenty of fuel for the day's outing . . . ), but I didn't realize that I could select where the excess fuel went back to . . . so I was taking out, say 7 gph from the supply tank, burning only 2.9 gph, but net result was emptying the tank at a rate of 7gph . . . engine started stuttering just off of Eva Beach on my way back to Pearl Harbor from Waianae side of Oahu, as the selected fuel tank became totally filled with air! . . . . embarrassing! Got the opportunity to bleed the injectors to get the engine running again . . . Ahh, the joys of boat life!

 

[tiltrider1]

You are not the first nor the last person to spill because fuel being returned to the wrong tank. More often it happens when someone switches the supply and forgets to switch the return.

I am surprised that you didn’t personally map out the entire fuel system before operating the boat but not doing so would probably make you normal. Now is a good time to label every valve in the fuel system with zip ties and tags. I like to make them on my printer and then laminate them with info on source and destination, some times adding a warning to check other valves. This helps to prevent brain farts.

 

[DDW]

There are two spool valves that will switch both feed and return simultaneously with a single lever. If you are switching tanks with no cross over, that is what should be used.

If I knew who installed than heater I'd go after them for gross incompetence.

 

[SteveK]

What I am hearing is that it is normal to have a fuel pump to flow an excess amount that is much more than rated need and can be expected to cause this spillage from an overfilled tank.
Even with gravity crossover the tanks cannot level fast enough with this fuel flowing from one to the other.
I could never envision. It is like using a transfer pump to supply fuel, use as much as you need and send the balance to the other tank. Bad design?

 

[SoWhat]

It is like using a transfer pump to supply fuel, use as much as you need and send the balance to the other tank. Bad design?

Good design, bad installation.

Gas engine uses vacuum to move fuel into cylinder. Fuel comes from a micro day tank, aka the float bowl controlled by float and needle valve.
Diesel engine uses pressure to inject fuel into cylinder so it needs a constant high volume supply.

Diesel manifolds offer flexibility in deciding which tanks will be used for supply and return, but that introduces a significant failure mode. Operator error (or installers error) but it's a desired 'feature'

I keep it simple. Port tank supply and return for port engine, and I don't play with the manifold valves. (I actually eliminated the supply manifolds when I replaced cu lines with hose last year. Eliminating returns is on to do list. I can balance tanks using fuel polishing pump on rear bulkhead if the need ever arises)

 

[SteveK]

Good design, bad installation.

Gas engine uses vacuum to move fuel into cylinder. Fuel comes from a micro day tank, aka the float bowl controlled by float and needle valve.
Diesel engine uses pressure to inject fuel into cylinder so it needs a constant high volume supply.

Diesel manifolds offer flexibility in deciding which tanks will be used for supply and return, but that introduces a significant failure mode. Operator error (or installers error) but it's a desired 'feature'

I keep it simple. Port tank supply and return for port engine, and I don't play with the manifold valves. (I actually eliminated the supply manifolds when I replaced cu lines with hose last year. Eliminating returns is on to do list. I can balance tanks using fuel polishing pump on rear bulkhead if the need ever arises)

I understand what you are saying, draw from and return to is simple enough.

Earlier I looked up a possible 50K BTU system that claimed to use 0.4 gal per hour. With what you said I still do not understand why the pump cannot be rated to deliver say 0.6 gal per hour exceeding expected use but not returning the amount to have made a difference where it went, assuming the cross over line was open to allow self leveling. BTW I am assuming a cross over can transfer 1/2-1 gallon per hour.

 

[Group9]

That very thing could happen with our boat. Our diesel engines feed from and return to the same tank as selected. But, our generator, while it can feed from the forward or aft tank, always returns to the aft tank no matter which tank is selected.

We were told that when we bought it, and the manual clearly states that, but yeah, I could sure see it happening under the right circumstances if we weren't careful.

 

[denverd0n]

My prior owner had Dymo label on the fuel tank junction manifold that says "only have one tank open at one time" or something like that. Not sure why that is.

I would suspect that it was so that, if you get a leak in the system somewhere, you only drain one tank instead of both.

 

[Airstream345]

Thanks for sharing, it really helps us all become better owners.

 

[skyhawk]

$13,000...OMG!

I understand 20 gallons spreads out on water to be quite a lot, but sheesh! It's not like that's the end of the world..... nature has it's ways.....
I mean I get cleaning it up.... and thoroughly, but $13k!?!

Maybe we should all keep on board those soaker sausages to ring our boats every time we anchor or tie up

 

[Comodave]

$13,000...OMG!

I understand 20 gallons spreads out on water to be quite a lot, but sheesh! It's not like that's the end of the world..... nature has it's ways.....
I mean I get cleaning it up.... and thoroughly, but $13k!?!

Maybe we should all keep on board those soaker sausages to ring our boats every time we anchor or tie up

Maybe that is why the insurance coverage is around $900K or thereabouts. It is very expensive to do any cleanup. I hope to never need to use it though.

 

[psneeld]

It's often the hazmat disposal that costs a lot too. (soaked pads)

 

[skyhawk]

just think about the billions of gallons of various petroleum that have been discharged or various reasons over the years and the seas have rather managed more or less ok.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that we shouldn't do everything possible to not discharge....and I'm not saying we shouldn't make a seriously strong effort to clean up.... but we should be reasonable too!

Is the USS Arizona still bubbling...since 1941?
and that's just one of how many just from that one war?

How much jet fuel is dumped at sea from airplanes, probably every day?

It's not like that whole region is going to become devoid of life forever because of 10-20 gallons of deisel.... $13k is ridiculous.

 

[RonR]

Sorry for the fuel release and cost, but good on you for doing the right thing the first time. That says a heck of a lot about you. And I am happy to see most recreational boaters fit into this category. I have to say our boat is new to us, there are many fuel valves and non are marked. The old owner said to just leave them the way they are as they work. We have Detroit's, they flow a LOT of fuel back to the tanks, and a diesel heater and a gen set. In the last Month I have noticed a dip in the Port fuel cell, and I do know the heater draws from this tank, I had figured the old owner had the balance hose "On" and that is why he said not to move any of the valves... All valves are on a bulk head with the lines, handles on one side, but no telling what they go to. As I can not see the lines on the other side where/what tank they go to. And its not a stock set up. So thank you for the reminder to get this to the top of the to do list! I may just post up a few pictures for everyone to post their ideas on and go from there!.

 

[oscar]

$13,000...OMG!

I understand 20 gallons spreads out on water to be quite a lot, but sheesh! It's not like that's the end of the world..... nature has it's ways.....
I mean I get cleaning it up.... and thoroughly, but $13k!?!

You want the cleanup crews to work for free? Oh, wait you would just let it go and it'll clean itself up. Nature has a way to clean up that pot of stew you dropped in the kitchen too..... Is it still sitting there?

On a different note....

Part of my survival kit are two credit cards with very high limits and zero balances.......

 

[skyhawk]

You want the cleanup crews to work for free? Oh, wait you would just let it go and it'll clean itself up.

nope, neither of those. Don't be absurd.....

.....at $60/hour that's about 216 man hours...a wee bit inflated I'd guess....

 

[rslifkin]

nope, neither of those. Don't be absurd.....

.....at $60/hour that's about 216 man hours...a wee bit inflated I'd guess....

I'd expect there's some base cost of just getting the qualified people on site. So cost probably doesn't scale linearly with number of gallons. I'd be it's more related to contaminated area (therefore quantity of people / equipment needed). 100 gallons in a small area probably costs only a little more to clean up than 20.

 

[Comodave]

The cleanup companies have to have equipment nearby and trained qualified crews on standby or at least nearby. There are a lot of behind the scenes costs involved. You can’t just bring Joe, an untrained worker, to the site and expect him to be able to do the work. Also there aren’t many areas that you get labor for $60 per hour. We are in a low wage area and the labor costs are $75 to $90 per hour. I was asked at one point to bid on environmental cleanup in California. After I looked at the startup costs I decided it wasn’t worth it even at first glance it looked very lucrative. And why not keep the waters that we all enjoy boating on clean?

 

[psneeld]

nope, neither of those. Don't be absurd.....

.....at $60/hour that's about 216 man hours...a wee bit inflated I'd guess....

I have done spill cleanup...did you subtract permits and hazmat transport costs and disposal?


https://www.itopf.org/fileadmin/data/Documents/TIPS%20TAPS/TIP_9_Disposal_of_Oil_and_Debris.pdf



"The waste problem



Experience has shown that the most time-consuming and costly component of a response to an oil spill is often the treatment or disposal of collected waste........"


The interesting part is why there was a cleanup at all....diesel is rarely cleaned up unless in a particularly confined area....especially such a small quantity.

 

[slowgoesit]

It's often the hazmat disposal that costs a lot too. (soaked pads)

Heck, I'd have just taken the bags of diesel soaked pigs home and burned them in my shop stove! End use would have been for heating, so they wouldn't even have been classified as hazardous waste! No transport permits, no disposal costs, etc. Perfectly legal, and inexpensive too!