Delivery Captain License Required?

[Seevee]

All,


Can I pay a guy to deliver my boat to somewhere if he is not licensed?


My understanding and searching, is that IF there are NO paying passengers and it's MY boat, I can hire anyone I wish, without a license to deliver my boat to a location.


Correct?


And lets go one step further... can I pay a guy to train me on my boat who doesn't have a license?

 

[jimdavi]

I added a captain to my insurance for 1 year ($100) and he was licensed. He drove my boat from Anacortes to San Francisco. He also made the trip many times.

 

[Ski in NC]

Yes, to both questions. You may need to review your insurance as if you are not aboard and boat is operating, ins co might specify a capt. Nothing illegal about it, but insurance needs to be ok with it. First question only, second one no issue at all.

 

[psneeld]

I can't be 100% sure, but Ski posted what I also believe to be true.


But I have been out of the business now for awhile.


Trying to stay up with it, I haven't seen anything to believe it has changed.

 

[Seevee]

Yes, to both questions. You may need to review your insurance as if you are not aboard and boat is operating, ins co might specify a capt. Nothing illegal about it, but insurance needs to be ok with it. First question only, second one no issue at all.

Thanks Ski,
Insurance is not the issue.... legality is. Just want to be sure I know when a capts license is required, and from what I see, it's only if one is holding out to the paying public for a boat ride..... ie charter.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Thanks Ski,
Insurance is not the issue.... legality is. Just want to be sure I know when a capts license is required, and from what I see, it's only if one is holding out to the paying public for a boat ride..... ie charter.

Agreed, I think you are legal on both issues

 

[oscar]

A captains's license is required to operate a vessel carrying passengers for hire. And, if the vessels get large enough licensing comes into play..... Not sure how large but a lot larger than anything on this forum.

 

[markbarendt]

No.

I'm working toward being a 'captain' in a year or so and it is my understanding that until I have a USCG captains license, I cannot take money for running a boat (passengers or not) nor for training someone in the USofA.

In discussions with an insurance agent when I bought my boat last year he suggested that if I hired a delivery the captain would need to be licensed.

 

[twistedtree]

No.

I'm working toward being a 'captain' in a year or so and it is my understanding that until I have a USCG captains license, I cannot take money for running a boat (passengers or not) nor for training someone in the USofA.

In discussions with an insurance agent when I bought my boat last year he suggested that if I hired a delivery the captain would need to be licensed.

My understanding is the same as Ski's, so if you have any references on the above, I think we would all be very interested.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

There are tons of unlicensed professionals being paid to move uninspected vessels all the time, if you think about it. Marine mechanics, dock hands, surveyors, employees of the builder, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Seevee]

My understanding is the same as Ski's, so if you have any references on the above, I think we would all be very interested.

Sounds like an insurance requirement.... but can you document otherwise?

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Thanks Ski,
Insurance is not the issue.... legality is. Just want to be sure I know when a capts license is required, and from what I see, it's only if one is holding out to the paying public for a boat ride..... ie charter.

Passenger-for-hire means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.

 

[IRENE]

Seavee,

I believe you are correct, and yes to your question. Below is the reference from the Code of Federal Regulations.

There may be some state bureaucracy that applies, which I have not addressed.

——-

https://ecfr.io/Title-46/Section-15.805

15.805 Master.
§ 15.805 Master.
(a) There must be an individual holding an appropriate license as or a valid MMC with endorsement as master in command of each of the following vessels:

(1) Every self-propelled, seagoing documented vessel of 200 GRT and over.

(2) Every self-propelled inspected vessel;

(3) Every inspected passenger vessel;

(4) Every inspected small passenger vessel; and

(5) Every towing vessel of at least 8 meters (26 feet) or more in length must be in command of a master of towing vessels, or a mariner holding a license or MMC endorsed as master of inspected, self-propelled vessels greater than 200 GRT holding either -

(i) A completed Towing Officer's Assessment Record (TOAR), bearing the signature of a Designated Examiner and stating that the Examiner found the candidate proficient; or

(ii) A license or MMC endorsed for master of towing vessels.

(6) Every uninspected passenger vessel of at least 100 GRT.

(7) Every uninspected passenger vessel engaged on an international voyage.

(b) On vessels subject to STCW, the individual meeting the requirement of this section must also hold an STCW endorsement as master with the appropriate tonnage for the vessel which he or she is operating, except as noted in § 15.105(g) of this part for vessels on domestic near-coastal voyages.

(c) Every vessel documented under the laws of the United States, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, must be under the command of a U.S. citizen.

[CGD 81-059, 52 FR 38623, Oct. 16, 1987, as amended by CGD 81-059, 54 FR 149, Jan. 4, 1989; USCG-1999-6216, 64 FR 53223, Oct. 1, 1999; USCG-1999-6224, 64 FR 63235, Nov. 19, 1999; 66 FR 20944, Apr. 26, 2001; USCG-1999-5040, 67 FR 34767, May 15, 2002; USCG-2006-24371, 74 FR 11261, Mar. 16, 2009; USCG-2004-17914, 78 FR 78005, Dec. 24, 2013]

 

[markbarendt]

My understanding is the same as Ski's, so if you have any references on the above, I think we would all be very interested.

So not quoting regs here but this is exactly what I've been told every time I've asked.

I do fully understand that lots of people skirt this.

https://www.myboatlife.com/2016/04/enjoy-the-water-and-get-paid-to-boat-5-jobs-for-captains.html

Boat Captain Qualifications

Some of you may be wondering about qualifications for the jobs listed above. In general there is one requirement that is somewhat inviolate:

You need a Captain’s license

If you are the Master of any vessel and you are being compensated for transporting people or goods, you need to be licensed. If you take a couple of buddies out fishing on your boat and they chip in to cover the expenses, technically you have taken passengers for hire and you may need to be licensed. Most of the crew positions I mentioned above do not require licensing but you may find it easier to get a position as deck crew on a larger yacht, one of the dinner cruises, or some ferries if you are licensed. The sailing school opportunities will all require licenses as well.

The USCG limits do seem to revolve around passengers. http://wow.uscgaux.info/content.php?unit=054-09&category=captains-license-info

The wildcard it seems to me is if the unlicensed delivery captain is responsible for other souls. For example; if the owner rides along, the owner is a passenger. That is a very normal arrangement. It might legally get weird with a first mate too.

Calling the coast guard might be the best.

 

[Keysdisease]

And to clarify, "Inspected Vessel" means a vessel that has been inspected by the USCG and is approved to carry more than 6 passengers. This is typically drift fishing boats, sightseeing boats, dive boats, any boat taking more than 6 passengers for hire as described by IRENE.
This does not mean a boat that has had a courtesy inspection by the USCG Auxiliary.
You can take 6 paying pax or less on an "uninspected" vessel, and for that you need a USCG "6 pack" license.
For inspected vessels with pax you need a USCG "Ocean Operator" license rated for the appropriate tonnage and approved for the water the vessel operates on.

I'm pretty sure making deliveries on small boats (within the US) does not require a license. I made deliveries for a boat manufacturer in the 1980"s before I got my Ocean Operators license, they never asked if I was licensed. I believe the defining factor is "passengers for hire."

 

[psneeld]

Lot's of people get paid to run boats for work purposes.


So just being a captain with other workers aboard does not mean "paying pasengers".


Buddies chipping in to go fishing was thrown out by the USCG awhile back so whomever wrote that article I now doubt seriously.


I always debated whether if an owner aboard during a delivery was an issue so I just made up a contract naming me "navigation consultant" not captain.



Teaching was the one thing that was gray and I never really got a straight answer from the USCG as I believe it would be a difficult court case. Taking a person on a vessel not of their own to teach A to Z is one thing....showing a guy how to get in and out of his own slip on his own boat is another. But it is a bit gray to me still.


With the illegal charter enforcement getting warmer, I am not sure I would hire an unlicensed captain. It could be aggravating if not legal if the USCG decided to make it an issue all of a sudden.

 

[jleonard]

If you give someone a "donation" for what they do its game on.

 

[oscar]

With the illegal charter enforcement getting warmer, I am not sure I would hire an unlicensed captain. It could be aggravating if not legal if the USCG decided to make it an issue all of a sudden.

They've got more Craigslist bachelorette parties to shoot down than they can handle. Video after video of foredecks with 12 twerking bottoms. You and your own boat with someone tow show you some tricks or move the boat for you are NOT on their radar. (literally).

 

[psneeld]

until something goes wrong....



true of most things in life.....

 

[twistedtree]

I think the distinction is whether you have passengers or cargo that has paid for transit. It's not whether there are people or cargo on board. It's whether there has been compensation specifically for those people and/or cargo. That's what makes it a commercial operation.


But all this is a bit moot, I think. Do you really want someone delivering your boat who doesn't have a license? It seems a reasonable baseline requirement. I wouldn't, unless I knew the specific person and knew first hand their qualifications.

 

[Seevee]

I think the distinction is whether you have passengers or cargo that has paid for transit. It's not whether there are people or cargo on board. It's whether there has been compensation specifically for those people and/or cargo. That's what makes it a commercial operation.


But all this is a bit moot, I think. Do you really want someone delivering your boat who doesn't have a license? It seems a reasonable baseline requirement. I wouldn't, unless I knew the specific person and knew first hand their qualifications.

That's the impression I'm getting. If there's no people carried for hire, then no captain needed.


Moot or not, depends on the quality of the person which is not the subject of this thread, only the legalities.


And, there's a few folks that are better than a licensed captain....

 

[psneeld]

That's the impression I'm getting. If there's no people carried for hire, then no captain needed.


Moot or not, depends on the quality of the person which is not the subject of this thread, only the legalities.


And, there's a few folks that are better than a licensed captain....

But I don't think I have met one with as much experience and knowledge as a really good captain.


Try the same with private versus commercial pilots. Good and bad on both sides...but the probabilities go with someone who has made it both their hobby and profession with expanded horizons beyond those that still relate.

 

[Hippocampus]

Know from experience if you have a owners operated insurance policy you are basically uninsured if someone else operates the boat when you’re not on it and that individual hasn’t been approved by the insurance vendor.
I needed a boat hauled and stored. Trip was maybe 200y from slip to travel lift. I wasn’t in that country. My boat manager had to move the boat. He wasn’t a licensed captain but did have yachtmaster ocean with sail endorsement. Insurance accepted him with no qualms.
My experience with US captains with self accredited days at sea has been dismal. Would rather take an experienced recreational sailor than one of those on passage.

 

[psneeld]

Finding a captain with more than recreational experience isn't all that rare or hard to find.

 

[Seevee]

But I don't think I have met one with as much experience and knowledge as a really good captain.


Try the same with private versus commercial pilots. Good and bad on both sides...but the probabilities go with someone who has made it both their hobby and profession with expanded horizons beyond those that still relate.

Paul,

While that could be true, there's LOTs of guys (gals) with a vessel captains license that only got it because it was the thing to do. Never worked for anyone and only owned one boat. Same with commercial pilots. Heck, I had my ATP (Airline Transport Pilot) certificate and didn't know what a jet looked like then. However, you're right... generally one with a license is more than likely more capable than one without.



However, totally NOT the point. The only question was legality... not qualifications or insurance, that's not an issue. I only wanted to know if it's totally legal.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

I think there is a definite comparison but also contrast between maritime licensing regulation and aviation licensing regulation, with similar issues of holding out, non-monetary compensation, expense sharing etc. but aside from 46 CFR subchapter vessel ops like towing or tankering or large ships ops, paying passengers seems to be the touchstone for maritime, instead of "commercial" for aviation.

 

[markbarendt]

until something goes wrong....



true of most things in life.....

Yep, all fun and games until the boat is on the beach.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Paul,

While that could be true, there's LOTs of guys (gals) with a vessel captains license that only got it because it was the thing to do. Never worked for anyone and only owned one boat. Same with commercial pilots. Heck, I had my ATP (Airline Transport Pilot) certificate and didn't know what a jet looked like then. However, you're right... generally one with a license is more than likely more capable than one without.



However, totally NOT the point. The only question was legality... not qualifications or insurance, that's not an issue. I only wanted to know if it's totally legal.

Once you get above the 6 pack type license and have to invest time and money every 5 years for renewal , I doubt your going to find many "its the thing to do" captains. STCW, GMDSS, ECDIS and other requirements are time consuming and expensive...

 

[psneeld]

Plus...I have seen a lot of good boat handlers that are crappy captains. And guys who know the local area like the back of their hands but have never even heard of a coast pilot or weekly NOTAMS.

Even guys who only get a six pack to hang in their den know those basics or should if their instructor was worth a dang.

 

[Hippocampus]

Totally agree the pros are pro. Please don’t misconstrue the above.