Arco Zeus External Regulators
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twistedtree
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None, but I am equally curious. My only complaint is that they are considerably more expensive than the alternatives, and it’s unclear how much better they are, if at all.
twistedtree
Guru
Yes, I've heard that argument, and there is truth in it. That said, I don't need (or want) shunts for current sense, so I'm forced to buy something I don't need. And for Lithium batteries you don't need a battery temp sensor either.
That's actually another (perhaps the biggest) reason I haven't tried one yet. It requires that you connect and use the current shut. I'm told it won't work without it. My BMS does the current measuring in my system, and even combines the readings from each of the two BMSes, so I already have a good current reading. And where would I place a single shut with a two bank/bms battery system? And even if I had a place electrically, I'm not going to tear apart the wiring on my main bus bars and distribution cabinet. Stacks of 4/0 cable are not an easy thing to work with and redo. I don't see why they need it anyway. Nobody else does. And it's certainly not needed to correctly charge LFP batteries. They are great for lead, but who wants lead anymore? So I'll wait at least until they fix that issue.
Morgan's Cloud is writing up a comparison of Arco and Wakespeed. Might want to subscribe to the website to see what they write up.
Wakespeed WS 500 or ARCO Zeus or… is the link to where they say they are doing a comparison.
Wakespeed WS 500 or ARCO Zeus or… is the link to where they say they are doing a comparison.
twistedtree
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Wakespeed. Lots to like, but not without its own challenges.
stevemitchell
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I've had an opportunity to pay around with a Zeus but not installed with anything useful, and not on my own boat. I agree with @twistedtree that the install requirements around temps and shunts (multiple!) are a bit limiting, and I'm tired of paying for $1000 regulators that I test that end up having issues, so I'm waiting until things settle down a bit.
I will say that configuration and monitoring on the Zeus is heads and shoulders above Wakespeed or anything else. I've configured many, many Wakespeed regulators, and there is a special place in hell for the syntax that was chosen to manage that product. There are some rumors that they will get a Bluetooth option later this year, but I'm not convinced that will solve the root problem with Wakespeed around configuration and consistency.
If you absolutely need regulators now, have a complex dual engine setup, or are using LiFePO4 (or all of these) then I would probably lean towards the Zeus simply because of it's ease in configuration, realizing that you'd be adopting a newer product with an unproven track record. If you can wait, I would at least through this boating season to see how things fall out.
I will say that configuration and monitoring on the Zeus is heads and shoulders above Wakespeed or anything else. I've configured many, many Wakespeed regulators, and there is a special place in hell for the syntax that was chosen to manage that product. There are some rumors that they will get a Bluetooth option later this year, but I'm not convinced that will solve the root problem with Wakespeed around configuration and consistency.
If you absolutely need regulators now, have a complex dual engine setup, or are using LiFePO4 (or all of these) then I would probably lean towards the Zeus simply because of it's ease in configuration, realizing that you'd be adopting a newer product with an unproven track record. If you can wait, I would at least through this boating season to see how things fall out.
Morgan's Cloud published another article on Wakespeed and ARCO.
z1nonlyone
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Hi All,
Have a Zeus purchased and planned to install in a couple of weeks. Having a professional install a full Victron system with Lithium. I am curious as many mention that the price is so much of a concern over even a Wakespeed. Even if the Zeus was a bit more expensive, you will have it on your boat for many years and have the convenance of having all the information at your fingertips on your phone!! I just don't get it. Save a few bucks and get a MC-614. Anyway, I will report how it all works out!
Have a Zeus purchased and planned to install in a couple of weeks. Having a professional install a full Victron system with Lithium. I am curious as many mention that the price is so much of a concern over even a Wakespeed. Even if the Zeus was a bit more expensive, you will have it on your boat for many years and have the convenance of having all the information at your fingertips on your phone!! I just don't get it. Save a few bucks and get a MC-614. Anyway, I will report how it all works out!
twistedtree
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Yes, please keep us posted. I'm very interested to hear how it works out.
z1nonlyone
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Yay, my parts arived. I ended up with 3, 330 amp hour victron batteries, Zeus voltage regulator, victron BMS, display, all victron. Yes, it was expensive. I do not plan on using any solar as I have a power boat and the batteries will charge anytime I am moving. Project should be done by this wednesday!!
Datenight
Guru
Other than blue tooth options, why would Wakespeed or Zeus be better than Balmar? I had Balmar on a previous boat and was satisfied with it. A Balmar fell into my lap a year ago but I have not installed it yet. Should I install it or hold out for one of the modern versions? I am still lead acid with 600 watts of solar.
Rob
Rob
z1nonlyone
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I don't think anything is inherently wrong with balmar, but I think new technology has passed them by with desirable features. You can use wakespeed with lead acid, but to get the most out of your charging system, lithium is the way to go and both wakespeed and zeus handle that better.
I use a balmar and am completely satisfied with it. It’s a 618 with a smart shunt, gauge and Bluetooth adapter. All my settings were done with the app and I can see exactly what’s happening in real-time, and make adjustments on the fly. I can’t think of any reason another brand could work any better.
Mac2
Guru
Short answer: Wakespeed and Zeus measure the current (amps) going into the battery rather then guess, like all other "smart" regulators.
twistedtree
Guru
True, and that's important for charging lead batteries. But for LFP it really doesn't matter.
For a 24V system, Balmar doesn't have remote voltage sense, and I think that's a serious deficiency. The best way I know of to work around it is to install the regulator right next to the batteries with the power lines (they are also the sense lines) connected to them as closely as possible. Then run longer wires to the alternator since those are less voltage sensitive. It's not an issue for the 12V version since it has remote voltage sense wires.
For lead acid batteries?
The Balmar only guesses at the current into the batteries, since it has only a rough guess as to how much current it is putting out, and no knowledge at all about how much is being consumed by refrigeration, engine, and other equipment. Its guess can be wildly wrong. Lead acid - and in particular AGM - need to be charged until the current falls below a very low level (around 0.04C). The Balmar has no visibility into this and takes no action because of it, leading to overcharged, or more likely undercharged batteries.
For LFP batteries?
These are a voltage regulated charge, so current measurement has limited utility.
One should exercise caution with Zeus at this point since it is new. This article, and others on the Morgan's Cloud website, explain why, Don’t Buy Generation One Electronics.
This is likely behind a paywall but it is a cheap price to pay.
So the zeus senses the alternator output in amps, and also the house consumption in amps and uses adjusted total for battery calculation?
From what I see in the balmar it has field output in the calculation along with voltage and time. Of course you need to program the calculated time values at the voltage thresholds to get meaningful results, but they seem like similar methods, just using different data.
Am I mistaken?
Mac2
Guru
+1 Great sight-Attainable Adventure Cruising. Like TT said, doesn't make to much of a difference with lead acid for charging, but WS and Zeus make the alternator charging much more efficient for both lithium and lead acid.
twistedtree
Guru
It's a bit different. Most LA batteries say that charge is complete when the current begin accepted by the battery drops to a certain level at the absorption voltage. So to really do what they ask for, you need to know how many amps are going into the battery. But nearly all battery chargers know how much current they are producing, but that don't know how many are going into the battery vs house loads. So it's guess-work, and many just use time in absorb mode to make the decision. Wakespeed and Zeus have the provision for an current sense shut right at the batteries to tell it exactly how many amps are going into the battery, and with that they can end the charge cycle when the amps drop to the specified value.
It's a nice refinement, but for a battery type that is rapidly becoming irrelevant. Plus, the world has been charging lead batteries "well enough" for a hundred years or so, so you have to wonder just how important this refinement is, assuming anyone even cares anymore.
With Zeus, this "feature" is actually an impediment, in my opinion. They require the battery shunt. You MUST install it, and you MUST wire it up. With LFP, it adds no value, and at least on my boat, adding a shunt at the batteries and running wires forward to the regulator is a major rework of my DC busbar system, plus probably a full day to fish and dress a wire through the boat. At the going labor rate, that's probably $3000 just in labor. All for something that isn't needed, and that I don't care about. I'm sure this will get resolved as they refine the product, but like with any new product, it takes time to work out issues like this.
I see. I don’t think there’s anything for me to gain swapping to Zeus.
I actually do have a shunt, it’s connected to the balmar regulator and SOC gauge. The regulator can actually “see” the amps going into the battery, but I don’t know if it uses the data. No matter though, I can watch in real time and see the amp draw, SOC, and voltage when it transitions to float, and if I thought it needed more time I can adjust it accordingly. I can make program changes in real time with the app.
Imo all of these regulators all do a pretty good job of stacking the amps back into the batteries. Some may be more complicated to set up than others.
If I switch to lithium batteries at some point I will need to rethink my charging scheme.
I actually do have a shunt, it’s connected to the balmar regulator and SOC gauge. The regulator can actually “see” the amps going into the battery, but I don’t know if it uses the data. No matter though, I can watch in real time and see the amp draw, SOC, and voltage when it transitions to float, and if I thought it needed more time I can adjust it accordingly. I can make program changes in real time with the app.
Imo all of these regulators all do a pretty good job of stacking the amps back into the batteries. Some may be more complicated to set up than others.
If I switch to lithium batteries at some point I will need to rethink my charging scheme.
z1nonlyone
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Well, I am diving in head first! Out with the old and in with the new. My old Trojans were so swelled, that I could get them out of the battery boxes and will throw them all away. Recycle of course! These battery's lasted me a long time. 5-6 years after I bought the boat that they were install in! For those of you wondering what a modern, Zeus or Wakespeed regulator can do for you, you only need to do a thorough study of videos and information. I am particularly interested in the "generator setting" that the Zeus has. At a rpm approaching idle, it will allow the regulator to output maximum voltage to charge the battery. This also has the benefit of loading the diesel somewhat which is what diesels like. My project might be done today or tomorrow and I will post the results. I embrace technology, hopefully not at the expense of the dangers of new products!
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twistedtree
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That feature is a tad bit misleading. In a nut shell, it doesn't "give you more", but rather "stops giving you less".
All the alternators in question will drive the alternator to full output at all RPMs, unless told to do otherwise. The most common reason to back if is to keep the alternator from overheating. But both Wakespeed and Zeus have an additional feature that lets to limit output based on RPM. You can create a table of rpms and allowed load levels, so it's pretty flexible. The primary use is for sail boats with small engines where at lower rpms there isn't enough power for both propulsion and full alternator output. The settings allow you to reserve power for propulsion rather than let the alternator eat into it. On power boats this usually doesn't matter since the engine is big enough to propel the boat and drive the alternator without compromizing either.
The Generator Mode feature in Zeus is for those same sail boats that want to charge batteries from the engine while at anchor. The Generator Mode feature tells the zeus to ignore the alternator rpm output limits, and just run at full output. In other words, it stops reserving power for propulsion. But unless you have set up rpm limits in the first place, there is nothing to stop limiting, and Generator Mode won't do anything. So it doesn't give you more output, it just stops giving you less than full output, and only if you have programmed it to limit output in the first place.
The problem is really only a problem in AGM batteries. The Balmar type regulator only has the vaguest of ideas of how much total current it is putting out (and none at all about what the batteries are taking in), and the default settings (and the way most are installed) will transition to float voltage very prematurely. Many - perhaps most - of the complaints about early death of AGM is due to this. If you have AGM batteries and a Balmar, about all you can hope to do is set the minimum absorb time to 6 hours, giving up a lot of its "smart" features. As you say, it will work fine on LFP batteries, and one has to question whether money spent in a DC system upgrade isn't better spent on LFP batteries, than an $800 regulator.
twistedtree
Guru
Indeed. The irony of all this is that LFP really only needs a very simple, two stage regulator. Bulk and float, strictly voltage controlled, and maybe a programmable absorb time. That's it.
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