100 Ah 12 volt Lithium prices

[Barking Sands]

I follow the prices closely. I have also noted that you no longer have to purchase from Ali Baba or Ali Express. You can get them from Amazon which is another layer of protection and return access. Many quality Lithium batteries are now less than $400 for a 100Ah 12 volt battery with a 100 amp BMS. The 100 Amp BMS typically will support charge rates well above what boaters would charge at and discharge rates up to 200 amps momentarily and 100 amps continuous.

The drop in prices over the last 6 months has been drastic. And with the amount of additional competition in this market I expect them to continue to fall.

Here is a link to a quality battery for less than $400. After clicking the link...also check out that price of the 200 AH version.

https://www.amazon.com/LiFePO4-Batt...id=1631385078&sprefix=100+ah+,aps,231&sr=8-15

I just wanted to point this out to those of us planning battery and electrical upgrades soon. I have a set of Dakota Lithium batteries for my golf cart (set of 3) that I paid $799 each for with a small charger almost 2 years ago. Those batteries have been nothing short of amazing. But the battery I linked is basically the exact same battery for half that price 20 months later.

Looks like a good time to make a move if you were waiting for prices to fall.

Just be aware most of these batteries do not have cold protection and that will have to be built into your system for charging at less than 32 degrees.

 

[Comodave]

That is a great price. I paid between $700 to $900 for the ones I put in our last boat.

 

[Simi 60]

What's in them?




https://diysolarforum.com/threads/lifepo4-battery-price-to-good-to-be-true.23771/page-3

 

[Barking Sands]

Simi...it would probably be harder to find a battery like that these days than to end up with a decent battery. Especially ordering from Amazon. In this video Will Prowse reviews a Chins, which is the same as Ampere Time. He also does a teardown of the Ampere Time 50 ah with the same result.
https://youtu.be/xBonGQe363g

This info is not hard to find.
In addition...note in the video of the Chins from 2 months ago he paid $509. That same battery is also currently $399 from Amazon.

 

[Simi 60]

Simi...it would probably be harder to find a battery like that these days than to end up with a decent battery.

Undoubtedly

But, having spent a bit of time on that diysolar forum, there are no shortage of buyers ending with 2nd rate lifepo4 thinking they were buying A grade.
Seems it's still a bit wild west out there.

Saying that, my 840ah @ 24v of lifepo4 cells are on the slow boat from China - but I did the research, chose the reputable supplier and got matched and batched cells.

https://youtu.be/xBonGQe363g

Nice result

 

[twistedtree]

Many quality Lithium batteries are now less than $400 for a 100Ah 12 volt battery with a 100 amp BMS.

That's just a little bit more than AGMs for raw rated Ah capacity, and pushing half the price of AGMs for usable Ah.

 

[DavidM]

I can't understand why the cheap but good? battery manufacturers don't include low temperature charging protection. It might add 10 cents at most to the cost of the BIM. But it is the one thing that gives me a bit of a pause before jumping in to one of these batteries.

Why if these batteries are the equivalent of Battle Borns, don't they add the one missing feature that without could ruin the battery if charged at low temps.

And why has Will Prowse become rather sanguine about the lack of this feature. He wasn't in the past.

David

 

[Greatlaker221]

I just installed two 200aH Chinns LifePO4 for $1852 all in. ($830ea plus tax) So Far So Good. They have a 200A BMS. The Ampere Time batteries with a 100A BMS sell for $760. They have a smart version with BT for more and a cold temp shut off for more yet. I had to read the fine print and go the the websites to get the differences not apparent on Amazon. There are NON Returnable. Why does Will wear so much make up?

 

[Barking Sands]

That's just a little bit more than AGMs for raw rated Ah capacity, and pushing half the price of AGMs for usable Ah.

Yes. And slowly..more manufacturers are also putting out Lifepo4 batteries that can handle cranking. I know Dakota just came out with some 60AH lithium cranking/deep cycle batteries capable of 1000cca. They are $599. It would be nice to incorporate a pair of those as start batteries and then a large AH house bank and then convert everything to lithium voltages/charge profiles.

One other thing I just ran across. Dakota just sent out a technical bulletin basically stating that AGM profiles were "good enough" to use on their batteries. The final voltage is close enough I guess. I am still in the info gathering stage before I settle on a final set up. Even with lower prices...its going to be costly....lol.

 

[Barking Sands]

I just installed two 200aH Chinns LifePO4 for $1852 all in. ($830ea plus tax) So Far So Good. They have a 200A BMS. The Ampere Time batteries with a 100A BMS sell for $760. They have a smart version with BT for more and a cold temp shut off for more yet. I had to read the fine print and go the the websites to get the differences not apparent on Amazon. There are NON Returnable. Why does Will wear so much make up?

Thats tough to beat for the cost. And doing the math on my golf cart batteries...if I can believe the stats, I expect them to last longer than the cart itself.

 

[Ken E.]

I recently bought 2 Battleborn 100ah batteries with heat for the RV. They were about $900 each with a 10 year warranty. The Chinese batteries that I shopped were considerably less.

 

[Barking Sands]

I recently bought 2 Battleborn 100ah batteries with heat for the RV. They were about $900 each with a 10 year warranty. The Chinese batteries that I shopped were considerably less.

Well..you certainly can't go wrong with the Battleborns. It's been the standard for a while.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

What amazes me is what Will says at the end of the video. Basically, prices are dropping but a DIY battery build is still cheaper. I've been watching some of the DIY battery build videos. They often get wonky, but it is still interesting.

The common idea of a battery as a black box with a carrying handle that fits in a car's battery spot may not be the best fitment for a boat. Some of the DIY builds daisy chaining individual lithium cells creating batteries that can fit in odd places (and relatively inexpensive compared to the complete battery-in-a-box configuration). I'm sure that somebody will come up with a Lego-style snap together kit that will allow the purchaser to determine size, shape, capacity, etc. The next few years will be interesting. Can't wait to get the lead out.

 

[Simi 60]

What amazes me is what Will says at the end of the video. Basically, prices are dropping but a DIY battery build is still cheaper. I've been watching some of the DIY battery build videos. They often get wonky, but it is still interesting.

The common idea of a battery as a black box with a carrying handle that fits in a car's battery spot may not be the best fitment for a boat. Some of the DIY builds daisy chaining individual lithium cells creating batteries that can fit in odd places (and relatively inexpensive compared to the complete battery-in-a-box configuration). I'm sure that somebody will come up with a Lego-style snap together kit that will allow the purchaser to determine size, shape, capacity, etc. The next few years will be interesting. Can't wait to get the lead out.

open up a drop in and thats exactly what they are, small cells daisy chained together.

 

[Barking Sands]

Marco I know exactly what you are saying. But now with that same battery at $399 I think it would be difficult to match even with a build your own. I was going to build my own but now with prices as they are I almost certainly will not be. Having 3,4 or 6 separate batteries all packaged with separate BMS units gives you a level of redundancy in case of failure. In addition you could reconfigure more easily I would think.

I have changed my thinking on batteries. Both in my Golf Cart and on the boat. They used to be a consumable item that was a nuisance. Now I think of them as one of the components in the system. My Dakota lithium's in my Golf Cart are likely to be with me for a very long time. At the rate I am using them (usually not more that 30% DOD, 70% remaining) They may well last 20+ years. In 20 years ill be 72..lol.

Like you I am quite excited to see what the future holds in this area.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

The self-built seem like a bit of a crap shoot right now. Stories of quality control and lengthy delivery times are common. Here are the cells needed to build a 320Ah lithium for $750. Still need a BMS, but probably 30-50% less than using three 100Ah box batteries.

Those that have the equipment and expertise are now buying lithium cells from Amazon because of the return policy. Buy 12 cells when only 8 are needed, bench test them (including balancing) and send back the 4 worst performers. Lots of fussing around, but one would really understand their battery system. I'm sure that the vast majority of box battery purchasers simply trust that the battery performs as stated on the label and, unless there is an obvious shortfall, never know if one isn't quite living up to its specs.

 

[Barking Sands]

The same battery in the link in the original post is now $365.

 

[Simi 60]

The self-built seem like a bit of a crap shoot right now. Stories of quality control and lengthy delivery times are common. Here are the cells needed to build a 320Ah lithium for $750. Still need a BMS, but probably 30-50% less than using three 100Ah box batteries.

Those that have the equipment and expertise are now buying lithium cells from Amazon because of the return policy. Buy 12 cells when only 8 are needed, bench test them (including balancing) and send back the 4 worst performers. Lots of fussing around, but one would really understand their battery system. .

Yeah, don't know about that.
Seems those that do a bit of prior research are getting fantastic results if buying from recommended suppliers on Alibaba

Amy Wan from Shenzhen Luyuan Technology for example
Matched and batched cells with testing documentation on each
Ours will be here soon

 

[socalrider]

The same battery in the link in the original post is now $365.

Great to see these price declines hitting this part of the market. Automotive LFP is well under $100/kWh right now at the pack level, so I think these 12V modules still have room to drop (the above referenced unit is $300/kWh).

 

[O C Diver]

Times they are a changing!

6 years ago 8 Trojan T-105s cost under $1,000 with the core charge. Now they're around $1,300 without the core charge. Was planning on switching to Fireflies for around $2,000 with more useable capacity. 400 AH of these would be even more capacity for around $1,500. Have to see if the Magnum Energy inverter / battery charger and the Balmar regulator are up to the task. Hard to know what to do.

Ted

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I was looking around the internet about what happens when a BMS system on a lithium battery shuts down (overheat, etc.) while the alternator is running. Not good. I suppose if it were a bank of lithium and only one BMS shut down it might not matter, but a few sites said to avoid the issue by putting a small lead acid battery in the lithium bank. That led me to this video on mixing lithium with lead, although for a different purpose. The basic idea is to program an external alternator regulator (which I have) with an existing lead battery bank (which I have) that comes close to serving the house purposes (which mine does), but also benefit from the properties of lithium.

The basic idea is to get the lithium and lead batteries at the same level of charge (so that the lithium doesn't go crazy trying to charge the lead), and then set the external regulator to a "hybrid" setting to charge the batteries. Say a 200Ah lithium battery is added to a 520Ah lead bank. Once charged, the lithium would be at 13.2V and discharge about 80% at which point it would be at 12.6V. Then the lead batteries would kick in, keeping the lithium from fully discharging. The effect would be that one could get the full usable potential from the added lithium (180Ah). The lithium would cycle a lot (which it can handle), the lead would cycle less (which it likes).

There is a follow-up video talking about a potential product to increase the charging efficiency of a hybrid system, but I'm not sure that the tweaking is worth it. Lots to think about from the first video.

 

[DavidM]

When an alternator is suddenly disconnected, such as when a BMS turns off due to high current, voltage, temperature, etc the voltage output of the alternator can spike with no load on it. That spike will often blow the alternator's internal diodes.

But rather than cobbling together a lead acid battery to absorb the spike, install a diode across the alternator's output terminals. Sterling and others make them.

David

 

[Barking Sands]

Or just keep lead for starting and add a DC to DC charger. Basically any alternator charges the lead...but between the lead and lifepo4 house bank is a 30 to 50 amp DC to DC charger that is configurable. Really there are quite a few ways to incorporate these now. I'm debating buying them now. We have two competing market forces at work...not sure where the price will be in 1 year when I will likely be building my house system.

 

[Ken E.]

Or just keep lead for starting and add a DC to DC charger. Basically any alternator charges the lead...but between the lead and lifepo4 house bank is a 30 to 50 amp DC to DC charger that is configurable.. ....

I just put a Renolgy DC-DC 50 amp charger that's also a solar panel controller in my truck/camper. Just returned from 3 weeks off-grid in Montana and it's a slick setup. The truck has 2 LA batteries, the camper 2 100ah Li Battle Borns. The truck charges the camper's batteries when we travel and 400 watts of solar take care of hotel loads and float charging, plus also charges the truck's batteries. Propane fridge so not much electricity required there when off shorepower. This is a great setup in RV's.

 

[Barking Sands]

I just put a Renolgy DC-DC 50 amp charger that's also a solar panel controller in my truck/camper. Just returned from 3 weeks off-grid in Montana and it's a slick setup. The truck has 2 LA batteries, the camper 2 100ah Li Battle Borns. The truck charges the camper's batteries when we travel and 400 watts of solar take care of hotel loads and float charging, plus also charges the truck's batteries. Propane fridge so not much electricity required there when off shorepower. This is a great setup in RV's.

Very nice. did not know they had some that could also handle the solar charging duties.

 

[FF]

The hassle with many cruising boats is never charging the batts long enough to normally get to 100%.

Doesn't this shorten the life of all batts, including the newest type ?

 

[mvweebles]

I just put a Renolgy DC-DC 50 amp charger that's also a solar panel controller in my truck/camper. Just returned from 3 weeks off-grid in Montana and it's a slick setup. The truck has 2 LA batteries, the camper 2 100ah Li Battle Borns. The truck charges the camper's batteries when we travel and 400 watts of solar take care of hotel loads and float charging, plus also charges the truck's batteries. Propane fridge so not much electricity required there when off shorepower. This is a great setup in RV's.

Similar setup I installed in my pop-top camper van. While the Renogy device works fine, I would buy the Redarc version instead despite carrying a higher price. I have since found Renogy to be a positively awful company to deal with if you have any questions or issues - a 2000W inverter was DOA and getting support/RMA took weeks - was not resolved until I filed a credit card dispute and a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.

Beware of Renogy. But the 2-in1 MPPT is indeed a cool item.

FYI - while it will carry 50-amps if alternator alone, when solar input, it is throttled to 25A each side even when there is no solar. Not a problem for a small battery bank such as mine (2x100A LiFePO4), but something to think about. If you have space, I think separate components would be a better solution.

Peter

 

[DavidM]

The hassle with many cruising boats is never charging the batts long enough to normally get to 100%.

Doesn't this shorten the life of all batts, including the newest type ?

I agree if we are talking about lead acid batteries. Solar is the only good way to completely charge up LA batteries while on the hook as it is on all day.

But for LiFePO4 batteries, no. They are happy to sit around at 50-70% charge for months. In fact Li battery life is extended if they are stored at 50-70% rather than 100%. I try to let my eBike battery drop to 70% before I put it away for the winter as the manufacturer recommends.

David

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I agree if we are talking about lead acid batteries. Solar is the only good way to completely charge up LA batteries while on the hook as it is on all day.

But for LiFePO4 batteries, no. They are happy to sit around at 50-70% charge for months. In fact Li battery life is extended if they are stored at 50-70% rather than 100%. I try to let my eBike battery drop to 70% before I put it away for the winter as the manufacturer recommends.

David

And, if I understand the video, this was one of the "benefits" of a hybrid battery bank. The difference in the charging curve of the battery types means that if the charge is turned off with the LA at only 90%, the LiFePO4 batteries can "give up" some of their charge to insure that the LA gets to 100% (12.6V), even if it drops the LiFePO4 back to 70%. LA gets what it needs and LiFePO4 doesn't care that it sits at 70%. Sounds too good.

 

[slowgoesit]

Interesting batteries. It appears that they're warranty is 5 years vs Battleborn's 10 year warranty. If and I say IF their customer support is as good as Battleborn's, than 5 year warranty for a battery that is half the cost would be a good deal, especially since I can replace them at 5 years of age with 5 years newer technology!