Surveyor wording is a little harsh

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TJM

Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
492
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Harmony
Vessel Make
1982 41' President
I need an opinion on a survey report.
My insurance company (Boat US - Geico) asked me to get a survey performed on my 42 yr old Taiwanese made President Trawler. It has been 12 yrs since the pre purchase survey so I was ok with it. I contacted a SAMS approved surveyor and enlisted him to do the work. I explained to him exactly what Boat US was asking and he said he knew what they wanted and that he had done this before. He reassured me that they were looking to make sure the boat did not catch on fire, sink, electrical issues and so on. Catastrophic failures were the focus. Sounds great.
I received his report today and there were a few errors, he reported no swim latter ???? I took the day off of work to answer all his questions, There is a swim latter and why didn't he ASK me ??? Small stuff I know, but he set the tone. He reported that my navigation light lenses were a little oxidized and that I should replace them. I call BS.

My main concern was that a finding was noted that "many repairs - refits - modifications - additions have been made to the AC and DC systems since the vessel was originally commissioned" He did not list any deficiency though.

He "highly recommends I contract with an ABYC certified marine electrician / mechanical surveyor to inspect the vessels electrical / mechanical systems to very installs were to ABYC codes.

WHAT DID I HIRE HIM FOR THEN ?? At no point did he say further inspections would be required or that he could not perform them.

I have a call into Geico to discuss my options or maybe get a checklist from them instead of being subjected to this harsh report.

Am I crazy?
 
just sounds like CYA verbiage. Can take a lot of man hours following electrical systems, so he punted -fortunately no deficiencies specified. I wouldn't get too excited.
Personally, I would phone him. Politely acknowledge that you appreciate his advice in the "highly recommends I contract with an ABYC certified marine electrician / mechanical surveyor to inspect the vessels electrical / mechanical systems to verify installs were to ABYC codes." section. Politely explain your concerns that a less knowledgeable insurance underwriter may interpret it as a deficiency that needs action prior to underwriting.
He will probably be amenable to removing the "highly" and adding "no specific deficiencies were identified". Alternatively, he may use that paragraph routinely as part of his prebuilt survey narrative and may be amenable to removing entirely in your case.

Either way, not a bad idea to replace the Nav lenses or replace with LED anyway.
 
I always agree ahead of time with the surveyor that he (she) will let me review the report before final submission. That way, these issues can be worked out.

Most survey reports have a list of required items (called recommendations), often split into "immediate" and "within xx time". The rest of the verbiage is not mandatory, but the recommendations must be met if you want to be sure that your insurance is solid (my opinion).
 
Echo what's been said above. Try to modify some of the harsher language with the surveyor before submission.
Post submission I ask to have a conversation with the underwriter. They are usually amenable to identifying items they feel need to be addressed. Have been successful itemizing on a spreadsheet with description of work performed and photos. Be forewarned they may want to see the items addressed by a qualified person with written verification of completion or an updated inspection by the surveyor.
 
I can see where a close look at the nav lights and correction of any deficiencies is very much in the underwriter's interests. We have seen talk of adverse admiralty court decisions when inadequate nav lights are present in nighttime collisions.
 
Sounds pretty typical.

Several surveyors I have used would maybe in a very limited sense rewrite their survey. They usually think it is a finished product when they write it.

Their job is not to write "your" survey, you just employ them to do "their" survey which they know is written for the insurance company if that is what you told them it is for.

I believe the last one and maybe my others were to be submitted directly to the insurance company so unscrupulous people didn't turn in an altered one. So getting changes might get a rewriting, but not necessarily different results.

Not many surveys are all that accurate, so disputing some of the glaring errors is pretty easy. A photo and note is often enough. I have had difficult discrepancies to dispute also, but on 2 insurance surveys ago, the insurance company sent me a form and told me to do it with certain photos included. Maybe my background info gave me a leg up that particular time.

Not sure why/for what you called BS, but oxidized running lights alter the light pattern.
 
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Putting on LED nav lights is a fairly easy and cheap fix. They will make your boat much more visible so that is a big plus.

As to the missing ladder, take some pictures of it to submit to the insurance company.

The most problematic thing is the electrical issues. Geico is looking for excuses to drop older big boats. This can be the excuse they are looking for. I would ask the surveyor what deficiencies he saw. If he can’t be specific then ask that that be removed. I would not submit it as written because you may be canceled. I went through something similar but a bit different with Geico on my boat. I had done $60K+ hard upgrades to my boat and Geico said they wanted to drop the insured value instead of raising it. I spoke to Peter Ricks at Navamar and in about 15 minutes he had coverage for more than I asked Geico for. I would ask his advice on how to proceed.
 
Geico asked me for a survey when my 40’ OA turned 40. Similar experience with surveyor including a boarding ladder. He also wanted a fixed fire extinguishing system and some minor maintenance items. I choked but put together a compliance schedule and plan and submitted it — and heard nothing more. I called and emailed ans was told it was “being reviewed.” With the policy due to lapse at midnight and no commitment, at 4 pm I sent them a letter of non-renewal and switched carriers. A trashy way for them to do business, I can only assume that they were hoping I would do that.
I suggest you consider changing to someone who wants your business.
 
If the surveyor knows this is for insurance purposes they also know insurance companies like to "shift blame" and have lots of legal staff too.

The surveyor is just trying not to get sued.

You know those foggy nav lights might result in a collision eh?
 
av8r said:
Geico asked me for a survey when my 40’ OA turned 40. Similar experience with surveyor including a boarding ladder. He also wanted a fixed fire extinguishing system and some minor maintenance items. I choked but put together a compliance schedule and plan and submitted it — and heard nothing more. I called and emailed ans was told it was “being reviewed.” With the policy due to lapse at midnight and no commitment, at 4 pm I sent them a letter of non-renewal and switched carriers. A trashy way for them to do business, I can only assume that they were hoping I would do that.
I suggest you consider changing to someone who wants your business.
Click to expand...
I 2nd getting as far away from Geico as one can, as fast as one can. They still make my blood boil. I had ins thru BoatUS for many years & I was a happy client until they became Geico.

Several years ago Geico changed their agreed value policies, without notice, (I just happen to be one of those that scans policies for changes each year) so that actual cash value did NOT apply to anything mechanical in the boat! In reading the new policy, I found they had changed much (most) the the coverage to depreciated value. Which included (for my power boat) the engines, trans, drive shaft, props, Gen etc. As I remember, when one looked up the "depreciation schedule" you found that it started from when the boat was built- so for an older boat, the effective coverage was essentially $0. When I called, Geico offered to "improve the coverage" via a rider- but the language in the rider didn't actually improve the coverage any.
I left Geico as fast as I could. Now I understand they simply say "no" to any older vessles. That's a tad more honest, but I'll never be a customer of theirs again.
I see no reason to pay for a policy that excludes all the costly important bits of a boat.
IMHO, when dealing with Geico, buyer beware!
 
I actually had Boat/US insurance for over 40 years. But Geico screwed them up.
 
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I had a survey a couple months ago that had a handful of mistakes in it (example: listed diesel tankage was ambiguous; dinghy wasn't listed). Surveyor (SAMS) was more than happy to make corrections.

In the OP's instance, the Surveyor didn't sound open to making corrections. Note-to-self: one of the questions to ask a surveyor before hiring them is how to deal with major defects or mistakes. If I were in the OP's situation, I'd want the opportunity to understand what needed to be corrected and to make those corrections (though there may be an additional survey fee). And the surveyor must be open to correcting mistakes.

Peter
 
mvweebles said:
In the OP's instance, the Surveyor didn't sound open to making corrections. Note-to-self: one of the questions to ask a surveyor before hiring them is how to deal with major defects or mistakes. If I were in the OP's situation, I'd want the opportunity to understand what needed to be corrected and to make those corrections (though there may be an additional survey fee). And the surveyor must be open to correcting mistakes.

Peter
Click to expand...
:iagree:

I haven't had a surveyor yet that was 100% correct. Little things like "no engine room fire suppression system", when he crawled right past it. If you can't come to an agreement to review before the final version, you need to hire someone else.

Ted
 
Thanks for all of the great information and personal experiences. I have begun the search for a different insurance provider understanding that the new carrier will still require a survey anyway. The surveyor's report was a draft to me for review, to give me time to repair the items. I struggle with "auditors" or surveyors that submit findings without facts. Those items should be reserved for recommendations, as that is what they are.

The nav lights were viewed at 1:00 pm on a sunny day, How does he know they are not in compliance? I will replace the lenses anyway as I am out frequently at night. I did call him and discuss my concerns. He was back peddling the entire time about the age of the boat and his uncertainty of systems that he could not thoroughly inspect ( Electrical and Mechanical). He mentioned that he did not want to get sued and loose his house. I suggested to him that next time he should decline the offer of work if he is unable to perform the job as paid.
I will correct ALL of the findings and the boat will be in better condition than when I purchased it and passed a survey 12 yrs ago.

I am ok going forward, maybe this is a partial rant, lol. I will never cut corners on safety.
Now I need to find an insurance company for older boats that allows live aboards. Suggestions?
 
Ive had 2 of those “curtesy” surveys both before Geico took over boatus.
They were both BS and performed by their choice of surveyer an extremely incompetent one i might add.
First time i was on the hard in the middle of a repower. No engine and i was painting the bilge,running new domestic water lines, etc.
The surveyor fell into the bilge. Then he saw the fire extinguisher i had mounted in the cockpit and said that was illegal and the insurance company will drop me for it. WTF?
Obviously that didnt happen.
Second was on the Albin and was early December again on the hard ( in CT) and they insisted the boat be in the water. I said no Fin way its all wintetized and covered.
Anyway the same surveyor showed up and after he barely got inside the shrink wrap all he did was write down the age of all the electronics and note that i should have an extinguisher on the flybridge(which was a good thing).
So these have been BS for a long time prior to Geico.
In both cases I wrote a nice letter to Boat US explaining my opinion and what i would fix and by when and never heard another word from them.
 
What insurance company do people use with older boats ? Most internet searches are filled with paying adds or dead ends.
 
TJM said:
What insurance company do people use with older boats ? Most internet searches are filled with paying adds or dead ends.
Click to expand...
I use Progressive online, I was told they cap the length at 35'. Some people tell me they get coverage for their older boats through State Farm also.
 
TJM said:
What insurance company do people use with older boats ? Most internet searches are filled with paying adds or dead ends.
Click to expand...
The answer depends in part upon where you boat and where your home port is. I recommend using an insurance broker. An excellent broker is a member here Pau Hana.
 
Half of them do not know more than a wal mart checker. They input their opinions as fact and many times they are not even close to correct.
 
As I said above I had Boat/US for over 40 years. Then Geico wanted to reduce the value of our Formula. Long story short I called Peter Ricks at Nobamar. He was intimately familiar with Geicos issues. Within 15 minutes I had coverage with Markel and a value more than I had asked Geico for. Anyone looking for insurance coverage should call Peter at 206-350-5051. I have no affiliation with him except being an extremely satisfied customer.
 
CharlieO. said:
I use Progressive online, I was told they cap the length at 35'. Some people tell me they get coverage for their older boats through State Farm also.
Click to expand...
I had Progressive coverage on my old boat, a Maxum 3200 SCR express cruiser. We got slammed by a wave out in the Strait and it broke the oil cooler on the starboard engine loose, dumping a couple hundred gallons of salt water into the engine room before I got the seacock closed. Progressive declined to cover any of the damage, leaving me with the repair bill. I do not recommend Progressive as an insurance provider.
 
Just to be clear, this boat insurance problem appears to be a US one as I am not aware of Canadians complaining.

My bad, I forgot we are too polite to complain, but really any Canuck having an insurance issue?
 
Did you have consequential damages in your policy? This is a clause that Peter at Novamar makes sure is always in his marine policies.

If you had consequential damages, your oil cooler would not have been covered but all damages as a result of its failure would have been covered.

Home/Auto Insurance companies usually don’t have consequential damages, it’s one of the reasons they appear to be cheaper policies. Real Marine policies almost always cover consequential damages it’s why they are better policies.
 
TJM said:
I need an opinion on a survey report.
My insurance company (Boat US - Geico) asked me to get a survey performed on my 42 yr old Taiwanese made President Trawler. It has been 12 yrs since the pre purchase survey so I was ok with it. I contacted a SAMS approved surveyor and enlisted him to do the work. I explained to him exactly what Boat US was asking and he said he knew what they wanted and that he had done this before. He reassured me that they were looking to make sure the boat did not catch on fire, sink, electrical issues and so on. Catastrophic failures were the focus. Sounds great.
I received his report today and there were a few errors, he reported no swim latter ???? I took the day off of work to answer all his questions, There is a swim latter and why didn't he ASK me ??? Small stuff I know, but he set the tone. He reported that my navigation light lenses were a little oxidized and that I should replace them. I call BS.

My main concern was that a finding was noted that "many repairs - refits - modifications - additions have been made to the AC and DC systems since the vessel was originally commissioned" He did not list any deficiency though.

He "highly recommends I contract with an ABYC certified marine electrician / mechanical surveyor to inspect the vessels electrical / mechanical systems to very installs were to ABYC codes.

WHAT DID I HIRE HIM FOR THEN ?? At no point did he say further inspections would be required or that he could not perform them.

I have a call into Geico to discuss my options or maybe get a checklist from them instead of being subjected to this harsh report.

Am I crazy?
Click to expand...
No, you are not.
 
After 3 years I still cannot find the bidet the surveyor found on pre-purchase survey.
 
Yeah, not hard to find, really obvious.

But unfamiliar. There have been at least 5 people who sprayed themselves with ours after getting off wondering "what does this knob do"

Euro, yes, Japan, yes, USA - "what does this knob do" :)
 
TJM, your surveyor may have created a disclosure problem, if (a big if) you are regarded as proposing for insurance. Here at least, the duty is contained in Statute, elsewhere maybe by general law. You have to tell them things you know about the risk they can`t otherwise know. I hope you can get him to modify his report to something more favorable. If you go elsewhere you`d certainly need to disclose it(here at least).
 
I forgot to report the favorable outcome. I had contacted another SAMS surveyor and was completely up front with what had transpired. I even supplied him the original survey report for reference. He chuckled and said a few WTF's. He performed the survey and educated me along the way. Provided great info and a different perspective. Report was submitted to Boat US / Geico and it was accepted. Insurance was renewed. I did not contact the original surveyor for fear of raising my blood pressure, he has not reached out to me either.
Needless to say, I would not give him a good review for his nonsense.
 
Just curious. Were you with the original surveyor during his inspection? Can’t imagine doing a survey without being present. This alone would solve any discrepancies, plus it’s a great opportunity to learn and ask questions.
 
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